Talyllyn Finances

I would imagine that a lot of people go to North Wales and sample several railways there. I suppose the WHR has mopped up a lot of the day tripper market though, the coachloads on extended holidays in the region perhaps. I wouldn't have thought the Talylyn got a lot of business from this sector.

 

In this discussion, however, it would be interesting to know what income levels are generated from joint ventures such as the Great Little Trains of Wales card that I used some years ago and which - I presume - is still available. This joint exercise allowed any 4 out of 7 days unlimited travel on the "marketed" lines but I presume that splitting the total revenue between the contributing lines could cause some difficulties if the apportionment was faulty.

As noted by others it needs to be borne in mind that station catering is used by non-travellers and the lack of refreshment facilities may not only affect the income stream but also the positive value of "word of mouth" publicity that such catering provides. Nonetheless the catering should be of a standard and pricing asto be able to cover its costs so a loss would suggest the provision of refreshments that are not to the customers' tastes (hence needs changing) or is over-priced and needs re-assessment. Why, for example, should I pay £1:00 - 1:50 for a bottle of drink that I can buy in the local supermarket for 35 - 50p; such excesses on sales are bound to drive custom away thus leading to the catering losses.

 

I'm not sure that's true, from what I know of the WHR they have created their own market that didn't exist before, walkers on Snowdon can now leave the car at Dinas and do the mountain returning via a different route to catch the train. It's also on the coach holiday circuit Shearings will leave the happy travellers to look round Carnarvon Castle then catch the train to Beddgelert and after spending some of their hard earned cash there it's on the coach again. I really can't understand why the locals are so anti railway still, given the money it's put into the local economy but I gave up trying to understand the Welsh a long time ago. The only problem the Tallylyn has is that it's not quite in the tourist 'golden triangle' but then it's always been like that. Baldwin in his usual negative frame of mind seems to suggest it should close but this is Britain not France ( they even turned their backs on the Viverais) where such a course of action for the first UK preserved railway would be unthinkable

 

It's now a 20% off a round trip ticket on each of the participating railways. More info http://www.greatlittletrainsofwales.co.uk/discount.htm

 

i don't see that creating a new market creates new customers. I think they are likely to have taken them from somewhere else , at least to some extent.

 

Not true, I don't think all those that turned up at the SVR for FS would have deserted another railway to do so.

 

that's surely not of relevance to this discussion. That's a one off occasion rather than a market sector. In any case you can't tell me that at least some of those turning up to see FS didn't do so instead of doing something else.

 

If what you say is true the WHRs immediate neighbour, the Festiniog, would have suffered a downturn in business but the opposite has happened.

 

do you not think it's possible extra people may have stayed at B&Bs in Porthmadoc enjoyed a WHR ride so much they rode on the Festiniog the next day? Or maybe they were Festiniog regulars who also took a WHR ride whilst there? You really can't draw firm conclusions without in depth market research.

Don't forget they may also have taken custom from non-railway attractions.

 

There are two issues being discussed here.
One is the specific issues relating to the Talyln and the other is the "running on empty" theme of preservation in general, which Beancounter puts most eloquently in his post and which we have discussed before and some people seem not to see a a problem.

I wonder whether the HRA would sponsor research into the financing of preservation now and in the future.

 

It would be interesting to know how the tourist industry faired in the area and put that in relation to that of the TR .....?

 

It is a bit strange how things turn out in preservation. Lots of early schemes were abandoned in the standard gauge.

Allan Garraway and Bill Harvey helped as volunteers in the first 2 years of the Talyllyn under preservation. Both decided the Ffestiniog was a much more interesting proposition. Now, if Tom Rolt had visited the Ffestiniog instead of the Talyllyn?

The Talyllyn Preservation Society benefitted from the considerable generosity of Lady Hadyn-Jones at the encouragement of Edward Thomas. They got a railway plus land and (worn out) locos and rolling stock free.

The FR negociations took awhile with the Davies family (all worthy solicitors, with Ninian Davies working in London) and required of course Alan Peglar's cheque (via his Dad) to gain majority control of the shareholding. The Davies controlled the Snowdon Mountain Railway Co for many years after - the last remnants of a narrow gauge empire that once encompassed the FR, WHR, and SMR.

Cheers,
Julian

 

I see it is now possible to book T.R.travel online. Could the complication of the website be a little off-putting to potential users. IMHO it is not "user friendly".

With the volumne of traffic it ought to be possible for straightforward catering of the "soup and sandwiches" sort to be adequately profitable. It is elsewhere.

PH

 

i think the miracle with the Talyllyn is how it could be taken over and yet so many years later retain so much charm.

 

But surely that's HIGHLY relevant ! FS has identified a largely untapped market of people keen to see steam trains; whether that "untapped" element is because the market has not been been made aware through poor advertising or because the heritage lines have not been aware of it I don't know. Whatever the cause the market exists and FS has opened the door to it so it is now up to heritage lines to tap into it. I believe, for example, that the Llangollen Railway has identified a market from Cruise ships arriving at Liverpool and passengers have the option of a coach trip from the cruise liners to the railway and a trip on the train. Is the coach touring market one that could be worth exploring to include visits to heritage lines as part of the touring package - and if so how many marketing officers have considered tapping into this market ?

 

As various posters are exploring, there are ways of building business - BUT it needs the recognition of the need to, hunger to want to, the ability to do so and perhaps crucially the product to not just attract but also retain these perhaps more diverse areas of business.

Whether we consider it a 'loss of charm' or not, heritage railways are competing with other tourist attractions and largely not each other. These attractions are hugely diverse, but the busy and successful ones are likely to be very large organisations, quite a lot are commercial in their background and aims and all will see presenting a consistent quality product as a vital ingredient of on-going success and indeed sustainability.

What quality of 'product' - and especially consistency of delivery - do heritage railways achieve? Do we expect our passengers to accept 'any old rubbish' because we are 'just volunteers' (an insult to the professionalism of most volunteers but an attitude I have heard - even from other volunteers) and 'it's all old equipment' (despite the reliability some achieve - now many Jacobites are cancelled or run with diesel - one or two a year at most?)

Such comments always bring forth howls of protest of 'commercial versus preservation', but all these underline people can spend years supporting an organisation and/or wide movement and not really understand what that organisation and movement is doing and how it survives (or not!) In 'marketing speak', do we really understand our 'product'?

I would argue that the heritage aspects, which will always have to be compromised to some extent in order to continue to exist in the modern world, are a, if not the key element of the 'product'. OK, many passengers may not know whether they are totally accurate or appropriate but they want 'transporting to (and by) the past', and all the heritage details that you may need greater knowledge to individually appreciate all form part of that overall picture. Where compromises are made, they too are part of the 'story' and if explained correctly can add to the passengers' experience, not detract from it.

No-one says it is easy. The value of the 'coach tour' and wider Group bookings market has been hinted at. Of relevance to the Talyllyn is that I understood (but am happy to be corrected if wrong) that the WCRC Cambrian operation owed a great deal of its success to attracting booked parties, and they form a major part of the Jacobite ridership too. I know of one Railway where, historically, around 50% of their business was coach parties - in terms of number of passengers, probably greater than a number of much larger lines.

But care is also needed - do such parties travel both ways? What discounts are needed to attract them, or extra facilities (inclusive catering for example) need to be included? There can be an attitude from other areas of the tourist sector that advanced booked 'customers' are most important, and the aim should be that people will learn not to try and 'pay on the day' by finding all available capacity has been pre-sold (either to Groups or on the internet). This is one area where heritage railways are different - if a party only travels one way at a discount but there are 'pay on the day' passengers who would have done a return at full price, you need probably up to 2 1/2 'party' passengers for every 'pay on the day' who you turn away, yet the 'party' is 'money in the bank', advance bookings are 'weather proof' and Groups may bring a coach load of passengers every week of the season - no-one should think that running a successful heritage railway is 'an easy life', no matter how much some would like to think it can be!

Which sort of brings us back to 'accept a trading loss if it makes life easy and expect the fund raising to stop us going bust'.........

Steven

 

There are quite a few railways that exist for the pleasure of their volunteers, where the visitor is likely to be sympathetic to preservation and where they likely have to accept what they are given and probably don't mind doing so. Once a railway steps beyond that, they have to be professional and have standards which match the rest of the tourist industry. I feel many larger lines are moving towards the Paignton and Dartmouth (or whatever they are called this week) type of commercial operation. I seriously doubt they could operate without employees doing a lot of the operating.

I think I prefer the first type.

 

There is no reason why the first type cannot be commercially successful (SVR, Bluebell, KWVR and quite a few more). The Dartmouth and Kingswear line is a pure commercial operation and it shows, no attempt at interpreting history or presenting correctly restored locomotives and rolling stock but even they seem to be coming round and the repainting of the Manor is to be applauded.
Sadly the GC seems to be going the other way, a lesson in what happens when the men in suits take over and one benefactor with an ego the size of his wallet gets involved. Preserved railways are working museums and in addition to entertainment have an educational duty which could be achieved without compromising the the first. One other criticism of a lot of lines is the public are given nothing of the history or why the line is there.
As an example the GCs diner service is called the Elizabethan, a name not associated with the line at all so why not call it the Master Cutler and explain in the publicity the connection with the GC route and use correctly restored rolling stock? The low point for me was seeing this train composed of peusdo Pullman liveried Mk1s hauled by a red 8F.
Some railways do care about presentation and do it well while others don't seem to care which is selling the customer short.

 

It is difficult to make a direct comparison between the TR and a number of other railways, as the TR figures being quoted are for the railway company and the amount of donations received into the company is small. Were the numbers accounted for after donations and/or membership fees in the broader family, it would show a healthy surplus. I agree that breaking-even operationally is a nice target but practically it is becoming more and more aspirational for many lines, and as the history of the TR shows, aspirational targets here, as in other walks of life, tend to be revised downwards over time. The TR though is in the happy position of being quite a small operation: a number of generous members agreed to increase their subs on a regular basis, the railway implemented gift aid on fares, and there are a number of legacies coming through. What works for a particular railway really depends on size. If you are Adrian Shooter and have a private railway in your back garden, then you presumably expect to subsidise it 100%. If you are the NYMR or the SVR on the other hand, covering actual or potential operating losses from donations is likely to be more difficult. Having said that, IMHO it is more likely to be lack of volunteers than lack of cash which is going to impact first, and one needs to be careful not to "lose the dressing room" by bringing in what might be considered to be crass commerciality.

 

yes, that's what I'm driving at really. If you make the railway too much of a business, it becomes less fun for the volunteers and you'd have to become more commercial as they fall away. I have visited dozens of lines over the past few years and I loved them all, but don't lose sight, fellers, of it being there primarily for the enjoyment of the volunteers.