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The Border Raider with 60163 - 16/09/17

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by LMarsh1987, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. DismalChips

    DismalChips Member

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    I really wish I'd had a look at this sooner. I've been trying see steam across Stockport viaduct for ages, and the fact it was round about sundown could have made for a superb silhouette shot.

    Buggrit.
     
  2. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    KGX-Newcastle is the route I was thinking is most likely to be done with a 90mph certified engine.
     
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  3. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Serious question, will A1ST have had to take a hit on this one to achieve their efforts to still keep an interesting itinerary despite NR's best efforts?

    I am thinking (and this would apply to any TOC or promoter I hasten to add) extra access charges for the additional miles, extra costs for the TOC - in that I imagine DBC don't have steam crews signing a lot of the return route at least and thus additional conductors would be needed in additional to footplate crew and paid for, arranging logistics for watering and coaling at very short notice. In addition to the strain on volunteers (stewards and support crew)?

    They did a fantastic job to snatch a very successful win from the jaws of a defeat not of their making, but I would imagine rather than these epics there is probably easier funds to be raised through simpler operations?

    Very laudable effort by all involved though.
     
  4. NeilL

    NeilL Well-Known Member

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    As I recall it was just about dark going across the viaduct so you probably did not miss a lot.
     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The paperwork given to us on the train said that the problem with not remembering that the route was closed fell somewhere between Network Rail and DBC, either or both of whom forgot about it. Everything that then followed was a remarkable effort by NR to retrieve the situation by making available staff to carry out the gauging and also to validate the path that was suggested to them by the A1ST in about 24 hours, no less. The crews who were originally rostered for the trip already signed the diversion route, apparently, so that's how it all fitted together.

    We do at times give nameless people in NR a fair amount of grief by accusing them of most things from conspiring to allow steam charters to fall out of their path, through late gauging that makes locos unavailable, to causing traffic jams on motorways that delay the arrival of water tankers! But I have to say that on this particular occasion, everyone seemed to pull together for the greater good and whilst a few might argue that's the least they could have done, the fact is that they did it and there are several hundred on the Border Raider who were grateful for that.
     
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  6. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    The size and influence of DBC no doubt helped with the rapid replanning being effectively implemented. I am doubtful WC would have been able to exercise the necessary clout in the time available, but perhaps WC might have done the 2+2 sooner? Absolute credit though to all that made sure this was such a success.
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I have to disagree with you there. IIRC on a Tin Bath not many years back, the route had been affected by some problem - derailment perhaps but I forget exactly what. The tour departed as scheduled but while it was en route, NR and WC got their heads together to modify the the route to get round the problem to allow the tour to continue. Others on here may have a better memory of what occurred that day.
     
  8. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Thats a good example of emergency replanning on the day of operation when NR is perhaps more obligated to find a path. I remain sceptical that a like for like scenario would have seen WC treated as favourably. That is not dig at WC, by the way, before anyone sets that hare running.
     
  9. Sean Emmett

    Sean Emmett Member

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    Here's my provisional log of the outward journey. Pretty much as recorded, and therefore perhaps too much detail - especially Crewe to Preston! Apologies.
    Will review and upload a streamlined version. But folk are always asking how fast was it going at X or Y.

    Have done some horsepower calcs based on a tare load of 469 tons, gross load of 505 tons and total incl loco of 671 tons:-

    Boars Head: 7 02 Frog Lane UB to 8 60 Boars Head OB, 1 in 104, 1,925 edhp
    Grayrigg (upper): 20 76 Birds Park UB to 26 01 Grayrigg OB, ave 1 in 119, 1,705 edhp
    Shap (whole): 31 43 OB to 37 22 FB, ave 1 in 88, 1,775 edhp
    Shap (upper): 33 27 Birkbeck Via S to 37 22 FB, 1 in 75, 1,834 edhp

    So solid rather than exceptional outputs.

    Return to follow later in the week.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Thanks Shaun. Pretty much what was said by the crews. Not pushed too hard due to the weather and rail head conditions. looking forward to Part 2..
     
  11. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    This one: https://www.national-preservation.c...“extra”-sunday-7th-november-2010.27286/page-2

    What happened starts at #39. @RalphW summarises later in the thread. I was on it and it turned out OK despite the missed climbs.
     
  12. Groks212

    Groks212 Member

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    If you stopped making unnecessary comparisons between the TOCS in some of your posts then that particular hare would never leave the trap.;):)

    Dave B
     
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  13. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    We will never know will we....
     
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  14. J Shuttleworth

    J Shuttleworth Member

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    There is a standard set of rules (notice periods, delivery etc), which have been agreed between all charter TOCs and NR planners and are there to ensure fair play; it is a fundamental that NR, as a monopoly supplier, has to demonstrate equal treatment, under Regulatory scrutiny.

    When the wheel comes off the cart, for whatever reason, it is then down to best remaining endeavours, to try and ensure the fare-paying passengers (who, of course, have no say in what might have caused the problem) get something other than a cancellation, The NR charter planners are small and dedicated bunch but are nonetheless a finite resource and it is inevitable, however, that there will be a knock-onto other charters, such as late delivery of timings.

    To suggest preferential treatment is disingenuous (as was your previous comment about route knowledge).
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  15. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Thanks for this, all the footage ive seen so far is of a continuous high, but as you say not exceptional output with that distinctive Kylchap chatter, Kylchatter ! is that a word ?.... it is now.
     
  16. Groks212

    Groks212 Member

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    I thought you only got that with Jeremy Kyle;)

    Dave B
     
  17. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Why remain sceptical? Arguably WC and NR pulled an even bigger rabbit out of the hat by rescheduling the Tin Bath en route than DBC and NR did by planning the rerouting of a tour before the day of the event.

    Edit : James Shuttleworth has explained it much better than I could.
     
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  18. Victor

    Victor Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Oh it is, it sure as hell is.
     
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  19. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    There is nothing disingenuous about it James because it was an expression of opinion rather than any assertion of fact. My scepticism is reserved for NR, notwithstanding your excellent explanation of the regulatory framework, in its actual fulfilment of statutory obligations on each and every occasion. I also tend towards the suspicion that an ecosystem effect is inherent within all regulatory controlled environments. However, I absolutely defer to the superior basis upon which your convictions are based that compliance is intrinsic to the industry in which you work.
    As regards the further remark you make aboyt route knowledge, this is again an area of genuine question. My assumption is that route knowledge has a finite life dependent on a driver having used it within any maximum interval. If that is a false premise, I would be totally pleased for you to publicly debunk it by explaining a little of how WC manages this requirement.
    Thanks as always in advance if you can spare the time to respond.
     
  20. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    I won't hold my breath for you to thank me for my "unnecessary" question eliciting a genuinely informative response from a factual source. You're welcome by the way.
     

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