Timetabled goods trains on the Isle of Wight

hi tom,
you cannot be serious about suggesting the P class is a better loco than a terrier, surely? ok a more commodious cab and a fancy reverser, but tractive effort and adhesion and sheer guts of terriers (if properly maintained and the valves properly set etc) count for much more!! i always thought the P class were considered a 'failure' and relegated to shunting etc and far inferior to the Stroudley terriers!
perhaps if you had a firing turn on W8 or W11 you might change your opinion!
when i say the IOWSR terriers are finely tuned this is no understatement and i know for a fact that Len consulted the UK's leading valve gear expert as to how to get the best out of the IW locos. they are in tip top condition and do a serious job of work!
cheers,
julian

 

Paul, you are selectively quoting me - I was making a point about how the Terriers were originally used, not about the schedule on the IoW! The South London line had 12 stations in 9 miles; that's 11 starts and stops in a scheduled 36 minutes with the longest sustained run being 5 minutes and the shortest 2 minutes (1887 timetable). That's a pretty tough ask, but it's a different experience to most current preserved lines, certainly those using Terriers, which have much longer sustained runs between stations. Incidentally, HJ Campbell-Cornwall quotes 80 tons tare for 13 coaches: if the KESR, Bluebell and IoWSR collectively assembled a 13 coach train of four wheelers, it would weigh a lot more than 80 tons! So it isn't necessarily instructive to look at what they were built for and assume that equivalent is possible today.

Tom

 

Put it this way, I think our P's are better than our Terriers ... There's more to a loco than just TE: the features you mention (and also better injectors, or at least less-awkwardly placed water controls), a better balanced regulator, a more convenient fire hole door etc make a P an easier proposition. Plus the extra 50 gallons of water is useful on a longer line. My feeling is that they steam better as well, like all Chatham engines. As for adhesion: we use ours regularly to pull 140-odd tons of Pullman uphill round a reverse curve out of the carriage shed, or to shunt-release 220-odd tons of service train each weekend, so no complaints on that score - they are very sure footed. The only thing I'd change would be to remove the cab doors!

I think their reputation is a bit poorly deserved: they were built for a motor train service but they (or the SECR's marketing department) were so successful in generating traffic that the load kept going up and up until they started to gain a reputation for losing time. Then being a small class, but still comparatively new on a railway that was rapidly modernising its fleet, they got pushed off to niche shunting duties where the light weight and small wheelbase made them ideal - though to be fair, by the grouping, the Terriers were also being sent away to various less demanding and niche duties.

Still, we're getting long way from the IoW goods trains! And, pace PaulH, if I could new-build anything to haul flyweight vintage trains, it would be a D tank...

Tom

 

Tom,

You're wriggling! You started the hare of the P class; no-one else. Stroudley's message was that if you lug around more weight than you have to then it costs money. A Mr. Micawber situation in fact and still valid. Some of Haven Street's four wheelers are more comfortable than others, all undoubtedly more so than Stroudley's but they are all lighter than their equivalent bogie stock. All are perfectly adequate for the short journey as, indeed, is the close relative of some of them to be found on a certain railway to the east that we hear quite a lot about!

I have no idea of the relative conditions of various examples of the fleet of a certain railway but I suspect this is more important than any original sin in terms of design. My suggestion that a batch of A1x's be built is partly but not entirely facetious. A modern boiler design for this type (he says pointedly) exists after all.

As I said before, watch the YouTube sequences.

Paul H.

 

Could you post some links to these youtube videos please Paul? Sorry I missed you on Sunday, I was there until 12.

Perhaps I should take this opportunity for a gratuitous plug: http://www.iwsteamrailway.co.uk/footplate-experiences.aspx (please read the T&Cs first as the exact loco may vary and other brands are available).

If you new-build some more terriers please can we have a cab roof six inches higher?

 

Being rather hopeless at this sort of thing, I can only suggest you go into YouTube, type in "Isle of Wight Steam Railway" and then select the filter for "Upload date". That ought to do it.

Paul H.

 

This one?

 

Yes indeed. There is another one as well.

PH

 

Excellent footage in both videos. The two terriers are clearly in their element rushing along at 25mph with their trains.

We'll done for finding a way for the goods stock to earn its keep. Tom mentioned that they are Museum pieces. Well they are, but by earning money they ensure a good strong future for the railway. Railways are expensive to run, don't forget.

On another point - all 6 carriages have been rebuilt from grounded bodies, both locos were once plinthed and all four goods vehicles have had heavy rebuilding (complete re-timbering for two).

 

By museum piece I certainly wasn't meaning they shouldn't be used, simply that one probably wouldn't flog them the way they were flogged around London in the 1870s! Just as there are still Spitfires flying, but not regularly being pushed to their limit in the way they were in 1940...

Tom

 

Very good point Nick, I hadn't realised the significance of the day. In addition both engines carry new boilers with W8 onto it's second ticket and W11 just starting its first ticket.

The next goods train day should see an additional two wagons in service which have also received significant retimbering.

 

All this, plus "Changing Trains" and the scheduled goods workings, is enhancing this line from a "Heritage Railway" to a "Museum Railway". Can't think of too many of those, on standard gauge at any rate.

Paul H.

 

Another video on this weekend has appeared on YouTube. You may well be in it!

Paul H.

 

it should be perhaps be remembered that the IOWSR 4-wheel stock isnt the small Stroudley 4 wheelers but ex LCDR stock originally 6 wheelers apart from the ex NLR 4 wheeler.

andrew, a few more comments on driving W8 FRESHWATER would be very interesting!

cheers,
julian

 

Without in any way knocking the original post, which I think is brilliant; the idea of regular "goods trains," but, in response to those who ask about other Railways' use of loose - coupled trains, the Severn Valley regularly runs unfitted trains of 12 - 20 vehicles on Gala weekends, or for photo charters. These are not very heavy, being empty vehicles, (unless they belong to a loco group and are full of metal bits!) and are easy to control. I drove one a few years ago and was somewhat miffed to be stopped at the Bridgnorth Outer Home signal and asked if I had sufficient brake power to stop in the station with my 108 ton "Manor" and 120 ton train of vans. I pointed out that I had stopped on a 1 in 100 gradient at his ******* signal!

I used to regularly drive 3 - 400 ton P. Way trains with a 75 - ton Class 25 diesel and, on occasion, a 50 - ton Pannier Tank, without problems. You needed your wits about you, but it was OK. Going over Highley summit with 4 loaded bogie bolster rail wagons, three wagons of concrete sleepers, 5 loaded ballast wagons, a tool van, the 6-ton steam crane and match wagon, plus the Toad brake van definitely concentrated the mind!

Power to the IOWSR, this is a great idea.

Regards,

jtx

 

To be picky, the L.B.S.C.R. example has always been four wheeled but I would agree the general premise. Two of them are still lighter than bogie 2406, also restored from "grounded" state, which itself is no heavyweight.

P.H.

 

The new video is here for those who haven't found it yet.

 

Thanks Paul, that is me driving up to 2 mins 45 then it skips to the next day. I'm afraid he has not captured me in my best light, having filmed my worst stop all day! Now you can see why I would like an extra few inches of headroom in the cab too...

Jma1009, I am but a humble Driver trainee at the moment, so do not feel qualified to write about it with any authority, but I will say that W8 has character in spades. The regulator is quite stiff and I am still getting the hang of it, hence the slightly volcanic Wootton departure, you can see me lean back in to shut off a little. The brake takes some getting used to, especially light engine, I am glad he did not film my woeful attempts at buffering up. It was my first go since December and only the second day on W8, honest guv! The Driver's Brake Valve is an LBSCR Stroudley one rather than the usual Westinghouse item as found on Calbourne, the Austerities and the rest, so another quirk there as is the quick release valve activated by a pedal on the floor! It's great though and my favourite engine so far, though I have yet to try W24. That should be this weekend coming......

 

I suspect the low cab was for aesthetic reasons. Stroudley always strikes me as like Ettore Bugatti. Both were essentially self taught, highly artistic people with flair amounting to genius but one always suspects that if form conflicted with utility then form would win! Oddly enough the "proper cab" was cited as one of the reasons for the award of the gold medal.

A little awkwardness in some ways is a small price to pay for flair. I drive a small 2ft. gauge loco. from time to time which has flair a plenty but the most haphazard siting of controls imaginable!

Paul H.

 

I think it is a 'proper cab' in relation to what other engines were turned out with in the early 1870s, plus anyone up to about six foot will be fine, but once you go over it becomes a pain. You have the worst of both worlds because the edge is low and the cab is narrower than the engine, so you have to move around, if it was full width you could stand in the corner and still have a good view. It is fine in the centre of the cab. The E1 has a bigger cab but not that much, you will still have to stoop under the edge. It is much wider from front to back though.

Cab ergonomics (and how people had to work) fascinates me but we are way off goods trains now...