End of the Line

Apologies for my slightly old-fashioned use of language. I can assure you I am all in favour of getting more women into the workshops, and all other aspects of the railway hobby for that matter!

 

That, to me, is one of the most noticeable things missing from the heritage railway today and very definitely on the big railway. I'm not talking about dilapidated vehicles awaiting restoration but the fact that we now have weeds and trees growing everywhere. On the railway of yesteryear you would never see a weed or any other growth anywhere near the track and trees inside the boundary fence would be the exception. Even the ballast shoulder would be neatly boxed in, whether ash or stone. Look at almost any photograph of the railway and it is almost immediately apparent whether it is pre or post 1960, even if it doesn't have a loco in the picture to date it.

 

Again, I guess that really boils down to whether railways can recruit enough volunteers to attend to lineside clearance duties. I remember beginning my railway volunteering career, aged just nine, spending many an autumn Sunday clearing leaves off the line at the Ruislip Lido Railway! Of course, it was vital work so I was ready to do my share, but I have to say it wasn't the most exciting of jobs!

Sadly, the reality is that no matter how hard we try, our heritage railways are never going to be able to provide a completely authentic recreation of the way things were. Indeed, that goes for all "heritage" attractions.

 

OK, I was being a bit PC there but I certainly am in favour of having "more hands in workshops" .................... and even unskilled ones can be trained so to me it doesn't matter which gender person the hands are attached to, if that makes sense!

 

Just as, on the loco. front, everyone was buying 4-6-2s!
PH

 

Buying - maybe. Running - not. I think you can count the number of pacifics currently running primarily on standard gauge heritage railways (rather than the mainline) on the fingers of one hand. Of course, if you add in the narrow gauge pacifics, the picture changes markedly ...

Tom

 

Nope. They were also buying 2-6-0s, 2-6-4Ts, 4-6-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-8-0Ts, 2-6-2Ts, 2-8-2Ts, 0-6-2Ts, 0-6-0PTs, 0-6-0Ts and 2-10-0s. Only 29 of the 213 escapees were Pacifics.

 

My point exactly. Add in unsuitably large machinery of other wheel arrangements and the picture is complete. Long term continuation of steam on the mainline is very much a fingers crossed situation IMHO.

Paul H.

 

Well, I thought you were talking heritage line use - presumably even by your standards, pacifics are justified on the mainline?

Ignoring the RHDR(!) I make the score:

Primarily heritage line use: 60007 (NYMR) 34007 (MHR) 34053 (SVR) 34070 (Swanage) 34092 (KWVR), which is only five pacifics currently used on heritage lines, and at least one of those (the NYMR) is used on a line which you have said yourself probably justifies such a large engine, given the gradients and loads.

That doesn't look an especially large number, certainly it doesn't give a picture of heritage lines being awash with big pacifics. It's true that there are several more under active overhaul, but I wouldn't expect the number in service to be significantly different in say five years time, since what we gain (34059, 34072, 34058 etc) will only replace those we lose in that time (60007, 34007 etc). And even if you include larger 4-6-0s: how many Kings or Castles or Jubilees ply their trade on heritage lines? None, AFAIK. Apart from Lord Nelson, the majority of locos working on heritage lines are Black 5s or smaller. I'm not convinced that the motive power that actually runs on heritage lines - rather than what you imagine runs - backs up your theory, quite apart from the actual (rather than perceived) economics.

On the more general point of "were the right things preserved 30 years ago?" Well, it's a bit of a stale argument now, since what we have is what we have. Which means it is incumbent on us to make the most of what remains (including carriages and wagons) since whatever else we might like to see, the opportunities to pick up e.g. Gresley or Maunsell carriages from departmental service are now long gone; equally the possibilities to find new steam-era wagons is more or less over, beyond a few grounded van bodies in fields, without underframes.

Tom

 

Paradoxically I think that for mainline use steam locomotives need to be 4-6-2 or equivalent and "newbuilds" with mainline use in mind that are any smaller are extremely doubtful propositions. This is because with ever increasing difficulties of access, trains need to be as large as possible to meet the costs. Problems come when one of these large machines approaches overhaul time and then has to earn a crust on heritage lines on work that needs nothing larger than a 2-6-4T. Don't delude yourself that the latter is not perfectly adequate for 90% of heritage railway use. It will be very interesting to see how long "steam on the mainline" persists. Again don't delude yourself into believing that this is assured.

Yes, what we have today is what escaped scrapping and whether this selection is what happened to be around by accident or due to gricerish considerations which avoided practical issues is a matter of opinion. Same applies to carriages.

PH

 

You're like a cracked record. What escaped from Barry was what was there to escape. Gricers did not decide what Dai Woodham cut up prior to the first loco being rescued. Nor did they decide which locos he purchased from BR in the first place.

 

You didn't read my last paragraph properly.

PH

 

Remember in the 60's money was tight and we are lucky what we have got from that time. Coaches on the IofW was going for £100, but they were unable to save any more than they did, due to the lack of money, and the 02 only survived because a private individual stepped in and help save her.

4 Gresley design engines survived was down to 3 people saving them they were as you will know the A2, A3, K1 and K4. In the case of the A3 yes, there was a preservation group after her but, if they had been able to acquired her the N2 class would have been lost. The A2 and one of the A4 only survived as there was a failed preservation on them which had stopped them been scrapped.

The Bluebell Railway (and many other groups) most likely be able to come up with a list of all the failed preservation attempts on engines where they were unable to raise the necessary money in the time scale that was given to them.

We are lucky for what we have still got.

 

The original Beachy Head; a Billinton K class mogul; a second SE&CR C class; Adams O2 W31 Chale ... for starters. Basically all went because the railway (or interested parties beforehand, in the case of Beachy Head) couldn't afford them, or couldn't get organised quickly enough. Worth remembering as well that in the early days there was an ethos that if one example was saved, that was generally sufficient. Given the money and the will, we could have had all three surviving Adams Radial Tanks. As for carriage stock - the amount that "got away" is legion.

That was the very early days: by the 1970s, I don't think there was much, at least regards mainline locos, that still survived but subsequently wasn't saved. The four engines cut up at Barry in the 1980s are notable precisely because it was unusual. In standard gauge terms, what we have now basically comes from three sources: a heterogeneous collection of locos preserved privately, by the fledgling preservation schemes or by the main railway companies between the 1860s and 1960s (much of which won't run again); what went to Barry; and a motley collection of mostly 0-6-0T industrial locos that were still running in the 1970s and early 1980s. The bulk of heritage line locos is made up from the last two categories: if you ignore the industrials, the collective makeup of the total heritage line fleet is very similar to the mix of generally more modern GWR, LMS, SR and BR Standards that went to Barry. Gricerish considerations simply don't come into it.

If steam on the Southern had been phased out in 1961-4 on the Western section and 1967 on the Eastern and Central (instead of the other way round) we'd probably have 25 Schools and Mauunsell Moguls in preservation and hardly any Bulleid pacifics. The fact that we in fact have the opposite is an accident of fate, not design by deluded enthusiasts.

Tom

 

Also if the Southern Region had carried on scrapping them in house which they had until approx 1964 if I can remember correctly, there would have only been the School Class other than the NRM engines that would have survived of the Maunsell built classes.

 

PH, a simple question; do you believe that what has been preserved is largely due to what gricers chose as their "favourites" regardless of practicality or that it is pretty much all that there was available by the time the preservation movement had got going? There are only a handful of locos from Barry not yet steamed, even less that haven't been saved in some form or another.

Also, what do you have against mainline locos working out their last couple of years on heritage railways? Would you prefer than after their 7 years on the mainline were up, they were simply put away until enough money was raised for an overhaul? They need the money just as much as other groups to continue mainline steam, because as you pointed out, it's going to be the biggest locos that keep mainline steam going. And for the short time that they are at a preserved railway they probably draw in more customers.

 

I enquired whether what got saved was what happened to be there or was actually the preferred choice.

PH

 

Not quite, you said ti was a matter of opinion, and reading your past posts, it's difficult to come up with any other conclusion other than that your opinion is what got saved was the preferred choice. What evidence do you have to back this up, examples have been given to show that what was saved really was all that was available, so are you satisfied that that is the case now?

 

It's hardly a question though is it. Before about 1965, the preservation movement (at least standard gauge) was tiny and a number of mostly GWR designs (and a couple of S15s and a couple of West Countries, which presumably you wouldn't mourn) were cut up at Barry. After 1965, just about nothing was cut up. What was saved was what was there - choice by preservationists simply didn't enter into the equation.

The list of what was scrapped at Barry is here http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/barrycut.htm - effectively, after 1965, the only engines that "got away" were a GWR 28xx, a 51xx, a BR 76xxx and a BR 9F. Presumably you'd consider the 9F and 28xx too big anyway, so realistically, of all the locos of suitable size for running on heritage railways that were still in Barry after 1965, all but two got preserved. So the fact that the spread of preserved locos is, in your eyes, biased towards being too big is precisely nothing to do with enthusiast choice, and precisely everything to do with simply what was available.

Tom