The next newbuild

There is an argument that that dullness +tattiness encourages misuse. One thing all railways could do is actively to discourage dogs from being allowed to sit on or children from standing on seats.

Of course there are not enough vehicles to go round like, e.g., the Bluebell's Maunsell droplight 3rd. or the IOWSR's Ventnor West set both with interiors which are a delight to see. However that species of Mk.1 with panelling in grey formica and seats which appear to have been covered with reject material from a deckchair factory is simply Yuk! There are plenty of them around.
PH

 

I agree that some MK 1s are definitely nicer than others. A couple of ours have a lovely purple moquette which was donated from a church several years ago which is my favourite, even if completely inauthentic. The grey pattern with the squares on is 'orrible, and the blue and orange stripey one is a bit "loud" I think and doesn't really suit the wooden panelled environment. But at the end of the day it's whatever's available, IIRC, moquette is £25/meter and minimum order of £10,000, at least where we get it from, so you use what you have, and if that happens to be the grey stuff, then so be it (although, thankfully, I don't think we have any of that, but a fair amount of orange/blue stripey).

 

Exactly. My experience is that many of the passengers I talk to do ask intelligent questions, particularly being interested either in the mechanics of how things work, or else the historical questions of "when was this built / where was it built / did this type of loco work this line in the past?"

I'd also agree with the continuum model: even amongst enthusiasts, not everyone can know everything about everything. A person with a deep knowledge of, say, SR motive power may be on thin ice with regards the LNER or Welsh narrow gauge; equally I know people who can tell an ex-LCDR carriage from an ex-LBSCR one simply by the alignment of screw threads on the guards ducket panelling (I exagerate - but only a bit) but are all at sea when it comes to locos. And then you'll find someone who knows almost nothing about either, but is a dab hand at vernacular architecture of historic buildings, able to distinguish signal box types merely by counting window panes.

From an interpretation point of view, what is incumbent on us - at least those railways that pay more than lip service to their educational remit - is to think about how to explain everything around in an informative, intelligent but accessible way.

Tom

 

Your figures correspond absolutely with those I have. Keeping carriage interiors in a decent state is utterly vital because whether or not passengers are familiar with the works of the Rev. W. Awdry or Karl Golsdorf they can certainly spot a worn out carriage interior when they experience one. There are plenty of sad vehicles around on heritage railways which is yet another reason for keeping a grip on any tendency of the motive power people to spend money they don't have to, for example in the selection of new builds

I quite agree that material in good condition and of decent design is more important than strict authenticity. However, authenticity is something to be aimed for if possible.

Paul H

 

I think that's twice this year we've agreed on something Paul! I'd go so far as to say that the cleanliness of interiors of carriages are more important than whether the loco at the front is painted in BR black or not! Certain railways definitely get picked up on it, thankfully as far as I am aware we haven't, only on a couple of our outsides which we are working through at a phenomenal rate. Does anyone know if the different types of BR upholstery were used in certain periods/places? First class would have had "nicer" ones of course, but what about the others, as I've often wondered whether some of the more naff patterns were only introduced with the equally naff blue and grey livery outside.

 

Have a look through here: www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/Cw/moquette/ and here: https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/extension3363/sets/72157626661385666/

Tom

 

I visited the South Devon back in October - actually using it for transport rather than tourism. - loco in steam was 3205 and the a mix of GWR and Mk1. All, however, were cold, damp, looked tired and smelled musty. The trackwork was also in a very poor state, creaking and crunching ominously under the wheels of the train, giving, even at low speed, a rather bumpy ride. The sight of derelict locomotives at both ends of the line (Hall at Buckfastleigh, industrial at Littlehempston), stored in the open air with boiler lagging and cladding still in place, was also not inspiring. In fairness, those are my only complaints about what otherwise seemed to be an exemplary railway, with excellent facilities at Buckfastleigh (wish I could say the same for freezing Littlehempston!) and staff who were exceptionally friendly and helpful. The duty stationmaster at Littlehempston had been there since the first day of the DVR back in nineteen seventy-what and gave me a lot of useful advice on how to do what they did 40 years ago - reopen an abandoned branch off a major main line... Hopefully the current surge in interest caused by the threat to Ashburton station and the formation of the group to save it, with the stated aim of reopening the line back to Buckfastleigh, will bring fresh investment in the line - and perhaps bring forward Dumbleton Hall's restoration... but ultimately, people will still spend their cash on what they want. I would like to see a fair few late LBSCR locos built, along with an LSWR H15. I would not want to detract from any credible project to build one. What would attract my backing? Not sure... It is a difficult question in which ethics, priorities and preferences must all be weighed up...

 

Thanks for that, can't say any in the 1660s do it particularly for me, the last few especially! What about blue with Orange stripes, perhaps that was a Western Region thing?

Edit - looking at that, anything in chocolate or crimson and cream can't really have anything in the 1960s catagory as they stopped doing that in 1962 and 1956 respectively, so the only coaches that are allowed to have the "grotty" colours are maroon and green coaches?

 

There are plenty of sad vehicles around on heritage railways which is yet another reason for keeping a grip on any tendency of the motive power people to spend money they don't have to, for example in the selection of new builds

Where is there a heritage railway MPD doing that? Most have enough on their plates keeping what they have going. New builds to date have all been groups, and you cannot stop their supporters putting money into their choice of project. You bang on about economic reality but seem totally oblivious to the fact that this is a free country and people will spend their money how they please. Since most railways are societies with elected officials, if some railways are running trains on branch lines with express engines, its either because that's what are available, or that's what the membership wants.

 

Equally, it might make people think twice about launching or backing a new build when something similar exists now which could be restored for a fraction of the cost (and time)... e.g. GW County of slightly dubious authenticity vs Dumbleton Hall.

 

You demonstrate more clearly than I can how the situation is an anarchic muddle with the utility of the finished product almost the last consideration, with a few notable exceptions. However I am not suggesting "stopping" anyone.

PH

 

I've always felt that the country we live in is exactly the same, an anarchic muddle; but it still seems to trundle on! People will spend their spare money on what they want and (food banks aside) this is still a phenomenally wealthy country- witness the estimate of the high street spending of £1.2 billion on some festival last Saturday in the UK. No wonder Santa Specials are popular.

 

Oh but you would if you could.

 

No, I am not a fascist!! I am though someone who gets intensely annoyed with romantics of the "wouldn't be nice" sort.

PH

 

We're ll romantics, though. You romanticise about only using small locos when the reality is that this is not practical from a realistic position. We have what we have.

 

I can only quote from my own experience but the LNER Coach Association started out collecting Gresley open stock and a buffet car, because that would be what would be most useful for the NYMR (and our colleagues at the SVR did the same). As restorers, though, our interests lay in collecting a wider variety of specimens such as compartment vehicles, which is what we have done more recently to the point where we can show the evolution of the East Coast coaching stock from early Howlden period through to the end of the individual companies in the form of Thompsons. When the process is complete there will be some coaches available for daily use, and some for occasional use such as vintage dining trains, but all will be usable and able to bring variety to the NYMR on occasion. The process is far from complete, in terms of both collecting and restoring, but we are well on the way with both. In contrast, the SVR Group are restoring what they plan to be their last coach, to make their ideal rake for SVR purposes. So that is two groups that have a clear vision and will be providing useful stock. The WSR GW and the Peak Rail LMS trains, if they come to fruition will be other and there are plenty of other examples (NSR "Knotty" train, Gwilli and Swindon & Cricklade vintage sets, whilst most railways have demonstration freight trains. I therefore suggest that there is rather more thought and planning going into restoration projects around the country than you give credit for.

 

Never said you were (note the smiley). But you are also of the "wouldn't it be nice brigade" it's just that your "wouldn't it be nice" is a class 3MT.

 

No problem with any of this.

PH

 

But think how much more economical it would be to have just MK 1s - higher seating capacity, easier to maintain etc...

 

Naughty.