"Preserved" steam locos that were subsequently scrapped

And my point was 'Such are the changes in the engine from 1829 that The Engineer magazine, circa 1884, concluded that "it seems to us indisputable that the Rocket of 1829 and 1830 were totally different engines"' - it was considered to be a new loco by outside observers and the original by its owners.

In the case of the replica, as Rocket essentially consists of a boiler, "...driving wheels, cylinders, chimney and some fittings", it seems like it was a boiler replacement and rebuild!

 

I didn't know that - thanks for the interesting quote, and the historical parallel. A variation of a traditional NatPres debate on whether an extensive rebuild is turning a historic machine into a replica. At least in this case there is no dispute it is a replica!

 

'cos it's a nicer place.

 

I will try and find out, interesting thought. Was it the earliest survivor at the time without the Lemaitre blast pipe? Time to visit the files!

 

Chris Beet did tell me the story of Faraday last year, I've forgotten it at present. It was privately owned, so not scrapped by Steamtown.

We have all forgotten Lord Camrose of course, the ex Mountain Ash Avonside which bit the dust around 1991 with the Vale of Neath group

 

There was a Drummond/McIntosh designed 0-6-0 44.021 of 1906 scrapped in Belgium in 2002 or so in odd circumstances.

The locomotive was a local built copy of a Caledonian Railways 711 class

The SNCB railways class 44

Picture Source: http://www.bundesbahnzeit.de/dso/HS/Belgien/b01-44_322.jpg

 

Quite correct Anthony, I should have said scrapped at Carnforth rather than by Carnforth. A lot of industrials that "bit the dust" were owned by well-meaning individuals or small groups who ran out of cash and/or enthusiasm often having done the 'easy' bits - buying the loco and ripping it apart. In some cases there was a very good argument for making one 'good' one out of two similar locos - maybe there still is.
It was a shame to lose Lord Camrose as I remember it, already partially dismantled, at Mountain Ash c.1978. I've never been quite sure of the true ownership of the ex NCB Mountain Ash locos as I thought, at the time, they had been donated to the National Museum of Wales and only loaned to the host railways. Avonsides seem to have suffered particularly badly from scrapping in 'preservation' - I've always had a 'soft spot' for them particularly the B3's.
Cheers,
Ray.

 

I don't think 30900 "Eton" was ever in the frame for preservation as part of the National Collection. Surely with a large chimney it would not have been considered origional enough. I always understood that John Scholes selected "Cheltenham" for preservation in recognition of the high standing of the RCTS in those days. They were founded in Cheltenham origionally and hence 30925 was the loco on their logo (if you get what I mean!). It was also a regular Royal loco for the race specials of the early 60s and was rightly considered to be in good nick when the class was withdrawn en masse in Dec '62. It certainly needed very little work in order to steam it for the Rainhill Cavalcade in 1980.

Peter James

 

Someone mentioned S15 841 earlier on - I don't think has technically been scrapped. All its parts remain at Grosmont, some combined with the best bits of 825 to make one loco, but I think there's probably enough left to reassemble it, albeit without a boiler and tender, and with poor frames and wheels! Hopefully, though, 830 will also enter the equation and one more good loco will emerge as a result.

 

Thanks Peter, you've saved me the research

 

OT but the ex Mountain Ash locos were originally placed on loan by the NMW to the host railways. The NMW acted as custodians for them as I believe the locos were to remain in Wales. Ownership remained with British Coal Corporation until the mid -90's when the host railways/groups were given the opportunity to buy the locos concerned. I believe that BCC wanted to dispose of them as effectively the locos remained a liability (normally the owner, rather than the operator is liable at law in most circumstances)

The locos/railways concerned were Llangollen (7754), Gwili - Mountain Ash No.1/7170, Caerphilly - Haulwen, Vale of Glamorgan - Sir Gomer/Pamela and Vale of Neath (Sir John) plus P and B (no.8) and Swansea Vale -3829 plus Llantanam Abbey

Regards

Matt

 

The format of 'Rocket' from the 1829 Rainhill Trials didn't last long; The cylinders were lowered to a much shallower angle, presumably to improve stability. I suspect that quite a few locomotives in preservation today are not necessarily what we think they are. In a big works like Swindon boilers and running gear were replaced and swapped over routinely, it wouldn't have taken much for frames to get muddled up as well. It's not as unlikely as the conspiracy theory that RMS Titanic had her identity swapped with her sister ship 'Olympic'.

 

It's well known that in later years components - all the way down to frames - were swapped, and, contrary to enthusiast belief, the identity of a loco was not necessary defined by its frames: the example of the pairs of long and short framed M7s that entered the works for one to be scrapped and the other to be overhauled, swapping identity along the way is well known.

However, it seems far fetched to say that frames might have got "muddled up". The works needed to keep records of the age and mileage of major components such as frames, cylinders, fireboxes, boiler barrels, crank axles etc. So swaps occurred, but in a planned way, not a haphazard one.

As for Rocket (the original): it's true that significant changes in appearance occurred over her working life. However, early locomotives were much more "bespoke" with less chance for significant component swaps. There is good evidence that substantial parts of the loco as preserved are original - even I believe the cylinders, which were relocated (and swapped left for right) but are the original, "Rainhill" components.

Tom

 

Cheltenham's a girls' school though, so if we're interested in conspiracy theories it is better to look to the wives of the decision makers.

 

Not back in the 1930s though, nor in 1962 - the first women weren't admitted until 1969.

http://www.cheltenhamcollege.org/history-and-archives

Tom

 

There's a Boys' College (founded 1841) and a Ladies' College (founded 1853) as well. I guess the locomotive is named after the former.

 

Every day's a school day.

So to speak.