Mid Hants Preservation Society Gifted LBSCR Coaches

it depends on how you do it, for instance, the underframes can be done using the staff that the railway have, but the railway will need to have someone who is experienced in wood work and rebuilding these chicken sheds to act as a project leader, then apprentices can be funded by a lottery grant, to teach them the wood working skills, as there is a shortage of people with these skills, , of course, the person in charge has to be able to teach, from my own experience, at Tenterden, there was a total unwillingness to allow anyone who wasnt already a trained carpenter and had the certificates to undertake any turning or shaping of wood or to train them to use the machines , in effect only 2 people both full timers used the machinery, and when one or the other was off that meant projects didnt progress, mostly because both were scared of the consequences for them selves, should there be any injuries, and of course, there was no one else who could sign people off , so the MHR will need to ensure they have have the people with the right skills, and the people in place to pass people in using what are very dangerious machines, if you dont know what you are doing.

 

Don't they already have people with the right skills? I thought the lottery grant for the building of the carriage workshop also included provision for carpenters and apprentices to work in it?

 

Yes they do the right people with the skills, and possibly one other as a volunteer are fully trained at Ropley, and 2 fully skilled volunteer carpenters working on BY S 653 and a 20 T Brake Van at Medstead, the latter, and in fact the whole gang just might migrate south to Ropley once these 2 projects are complete, a skilled team indeed.

Chris:

 

Well the group I work with none are trained to do carpentry work, and was all were self trained with just seeing what other do so they taught me what to do as well and to use the machines as well. They have made hoops for the roofs and the main upright timbers, seat ends for open coaches as well. There is no need for trained people to do this work, and to use the machines, just to use common sense over the safety using the machines as been taught and getting your bit of paper doesn't make it any more safe.

 

However people learn to do a task, they have to undergo some sort of learning process. Incidentally I profoundly distrust the expression "common sense". All too often it means no more than "in my opinion".

PH

 

All the best tools were locked away or hidden at HK when I was in the C&W many moons ago and reserved for the full time staff or the selected few that were in the circle of trust. There was always an attitude that the good stuff was not available for the weekend plebs. Hence most of us bought our own tools. Definitely a keep the skills, toys and capabilities to those in the circle. Don't think this was a problem confined to West Sussex as everybody who I have ever spoken to that was involved in preservation has spoken of the cliques and the underhand attitudes of exclusivity that goes with them

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And as an aside to this those deepest in the clique tended to be the least socially skilled and tended to live with their ages mother's...

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maybe THEY brought their own tools.

 

From my experience some people actually prefer to use there own familiar tools. We have a full range of hand tools available for all to use. Our Machinery is used by all that have been passed as competent to use it, with about a dozen being passed out on a couple of the more basic machines. Even I am not passed to use all of them!

 

There maybe just weren't many outside the alleged "clique" who they felt it worth them distracting themselves from the job in hand to exercise their social skills getting to know the newcomers, especially with some of the attitudes you come across on here..............

The balance between allowing people to "have a go", "learn on the job" and actually getting work done to the required quality can be one of the hardest bits of managing a volunteer workforce - and I bet very few in our movement have had much training or hold qualifications in this vital skill! "Letting somebody have ago" only to have to redo what they have done wastes time, risks damage and, when they find out (which they probably will) will no doubt have the same end result of them going away, never to come back, as not letting them have a go would have done. One of the things this movement can be terrible at is telling people they are not cut out for the job they are trying to do in a way that doesn't make them leave altogether. Round pegs in squares holes helps nobody, but there is probably a round hole elsewhere int he organisation many would fit to a "T"!

I do wonder how often the reason "cliques" form is because somebody new comes in, eager to grant the ill-informed the full benefit of their skills and knowledge without ever considering that those already there might not be so trusting as to accept that the newcomer is the expert on everything they clearly believe themselves to be - people close ranks to such an attitude. Coming in and being willing to prove your own skills is a so much more "socially aware" approach!

Steven

 

But...........(and it's a big but).....if you never let anyone try a technique, then the skills will die out when the old-hands either move on or pass on. There needs to be a balance of letting newbies try something (even on scrap components) to never letting them try anything beyond sweeping the floor just in case they mess up. Even if someone does mess up, they should be given a couple of chances (on scrap material), as some techniques can take a bit of getting used to.

The man (or woman) who's never made a mistake, has never made anything.....


Keith

 

Fully agree, it certainly is the hardest part of my job (apart from wanting a bigger workshop, more budget, etc. etc )

 

So some groups will decide they haven't got the time to show somebody new what to do, and spend far longer doing the coach/wagon than the time lost training somebody else to help out so it will be a lose lose case.

I was only helping for two months on Saturday only when they were giving me a piece of wood and dimensions what they wanted, and I got on and produced it. Yes if there was a problem they soon showed how to come over it.

Some of these groups want coach/wagons restoration never to happen because they don't want the next generation to help. Remember it is approx 60 years ago BR built the last wooden bodied coach, and 50 years sense BR will have stopped repairing passenger carrying wooden bodied coaches, so you will be approx 70 years old, or older to have worked on them for BR, so most restorers have never worked on wooden bodied coaches for a living other than preserved ones and most helpers are volunteers these days.

 

I can only comment on my own experience, and that was one of the person who was the tradesperson being reluctant to allow anyone to use any of the machinery in the wood work shop because in the past someone had damaged one of the buz saws by putting a plank with a nail through it , i used to help set up fences etc, set the machines up, but we had to get the carpenter or supervisor to actually operate the machine, the exception was ken, who was in charge of the vintage carriages and a director, and one day on a week end he set and used the spindle moulder to make the panels for the guards door rebates, i looked at them, was not impressed with the standard of them, and the following monday, the chippy remade them, and i had to fettle them, so i can understand a reluctance to allow people to use machinery but internal politics with in the railway over years has not helped, look to who was our health and safety guy, hint ex MHR health & safety and you can see why

 

I don't know much about our wood-working department as their 'day' is different to mine. But I do know that there are specific lists of who can operate each machine and recently some newer people have received training to operate some of these machines. Even with the limited wood in MK 1s it is still a sticking point for us, and without one specific person who does a huge amount of work we'd be a lot slower.

Even painting is a skill, and before I joined the old head of the painting team was very select on who was allowed to be let loose with a brush. However our new head is a lot more open allowing most people to have a go, but some people just cannot follow instructions - no matter how many times you say "paint vertically" you still get the odd person who puts it on like shaving foam - I've had to sand some right down a few times, a waste of the original person and my time, and of paint. However if you want more people trained up, it's difficult as even the very base undercoat has to be done half decently because it all shows through.

Hopefully when we get a few more wagons coming through again that makes a good starting point for painters (mind you even that's not necessarily a good idea, next time it isn't raining a couple of us are going to Laverton to repaint something that wasn't done too long ago as it wasn't done very well.)

Another potential problem is where there is paid staff, they don't tend to let the volunteers do what they do, so volunteers get relagated to less interesting jobs, resulting in them leaving, so the railway then has to employ more people - it's a slippery slope employing people alongside volunteers. I can see in a few years time paid heads of departments on our railway but I hope never to see paid painters, because as soon s we have one, all the rest of us won't be allowed as we're taking the employee's work.

 

Absolutely agree - there needs to be a balance and getting that balance right is one of the hardest bits of managing a workforce there due to enthusiasm rather than remuneration.

(Managing the dynamics of an existing group and integrating newbies is another tricky part - and depends on the approach of both parties).

Steven

 

Having done an engineering apprentiship in the very early '70s Im still pleased that 'the old boys' let me do proper work, albeit under close supervision.

The result is that I learned a good trade, had respect for those before me, never cocked up anything of great importance, have left a legacy in that some of the things I made then are still working, and gained the wisdom of passing my skills onto those much younger then me now.

 

I was looking to do carpentry courses through 'night school' so I can improve my skills to allow for a change in career, but it seems that no colleges in the Beds/Herts area do them anymore. I would love the chance to do an apprenticeship to allow for the restoration of wooden bodies vehicles

 

Footbridge and others have hit the nail on the head, however what about someone teaching a willing group under supervision?. The biggest problem as I see it, (thank you Maunsall Man), are the cliques and paid staff who firmly beleive that you as a volunteer are taking their jobs and positions away from them.
It is time to knock a few skulls together to make all of us realize that volunteers and paid staff NEED each other, one cannot function without the other.

Chris: