What happened to the Bluebell's fire train?

Not wishing to get into any politics around this subject but following looking through some old photographs I took on the BB of the fire train in the early 1990's, I am just curious why the train/service was abandoned.

I know the LSWR carriage has been restored from that service/departmental state to passenger carrying condition but why wasn't the carriage replaced with some other vehicle and refitted with all the equipment?

I had the good fortune to visit when the train was crewed after a run up the line to deal with a small blaze and was given a quick tour of the train showing the interior of 1520 and PMV with all the various pumps and equipment etc and it looked professional, well maintained with a enthusiastic support team

I can only say that I thought the train looked like a asset to the railway and provided a (and I am only assuming) good service/return on investment. I was told it was used many times along the line and it also reduced the PLC's insurance costs as a result.

All I can assume was it wasn't cost effective to maintain as no other line, as far as I can tell has ever replicated this setup?

 

I've got a feeling it was down to lack of crews, but I may well be wrong. I think most locos are given small petrol water pumps for emergency use over the summer months these days. The old fire station at HK is still standing but leaning at a fairly impressive angle!

Incidentally I visited the Puffing Billy railway near Melbourne earlier this year. Amazing 2ft gauge line. They're very nervous (understandably) about fires in that part of the world, particularly after many people were killed in a forest fire a couple of years back. I had a cab ride through what they call the most dangerous section-1 in 35 with decent length trains, coal fired, through dry eucalyptus wood. They said if it caught it would go up very quickly!

I was very impressed with their fire safety attitude. The local area have fire risk codes, with the railway basing everything on that. If the risk is above one level they run diesel, another level they don't run anything, and a level above that nobody is allowed on railway property. Every train is tailed 5mins behind by a PW trolley (they were testing a new Gator truck when I went) with fire fighting equipment and two spotters. 5 mins behind gives them time for any fires to be noticeable, as well as time for the guard for the train in front to stop them if they're stopped themselves. Not necessarily practical (or necessary) over here, but fascinating how they do it. If any fires start then it's not going to be because they don't have the right attitude and system!


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I never understood operationally how it was supposed to work (it was before my time as a volunteer, so I never saw it used). Having discovered a fire, if you wait until your train has got to a station, then take a light engine to HK to get the fire train, then go on to the fire - by time you arrive, it would either be out or well and truly ablaze. Either way, you have knocked your timetable to bits, possibly for nothing. Better to tackle the fire as soon as you come across it, when it will likely be smaller. As for 1520, it's better as a revenue-earning vehicle! I believe it suffered some water damage during its time as a fire pump, which complicated the overhaul somewhat. I don't know what happened to the equipment.

As Dan says, currently we use small portable pumps on the backs of tender engines. Alternatively, you can use the injector pep pipe or in extremes a bucket filled from the injector overflow. We also have an active line side clearance gang - the best solution is prevention, which means keeping the line side vegetation at bay, and which has the spin-off benefit of making the line side more attractive for passengers. They are unsung heroes...

Tom

 

Tom,
I recall we met after a potentially nasty fire on the Bluebell when I recounted that one passenger had complained of the train being held up to put out the blaze! The fire was just stopped short of going into the trees.

Really the best answer is to re-draught the motive power with Lempor in association with a micro-mesh spark arrestor. A murrain on gricers complaining about the exhaust note being changed! Ashpans disgorging hot cinders can also be a problem.

Paul H

 

How long would that take to do the whole fleet and how much would it cost? IIRC locos elsewhere currently fitted with a Lempor have been done at overhaul.

 

A bit off-topic, but here is a picture of the crew of 31806 dealing with a small fire during a recent photocharter on the Swanage railway - the wind had quickly whipped the flames beyond the "several photographers stamping on the flames to put them out stage"

 

in most cases, a pep pipe will be enough if its trackside, that and using beaters, of course the next option is for either a member of the loco, or guard to call 999 if its gaining a hold, they can tell the fire brigade exactly where the fire is, in that case the rules are that you proceed to the next station,and halt services on the effected section untill the fire is dealt with and the section declaired safe to operate trains on

 

I'm not sure about the cost-justification of lempor given the redesign work, pattern making, new castings etc - especially as a large number of Bluebell locos are unique so would need unique solutions.

One solution (lights blue touch paper...) is to use larger locos that aren't working at their grate limit, of course

As I said, lineside clearance is also key. I remember visiting another line once for the first time. As we went along, I saw a large expanse of unburnt bracken and remember saying to my father "that's one spark away from a big fire". Lo and behold, about a minute up the line there were the blackened remains of what had evidently been quite a significant burn!

Tom

 

We have a water tanker and an equipment truck for use in fire situation on the NYMR, but once you have sent it into section, that is the single line blocked and everyone is going home on a bus - very "Modern railway"! That is without the issues of clearing the section of a passenger train, finding motive power etc. to use the train which Tom referred to. All trains carry beaters and water buckets (I can recall having to drain toilet tanks into the buckets to get a water supply on a diesel hauled train for a fire nowhere near a stream!)

Like Puffing Billy down-under, we have "FIRECON" codes, which are our own but based on those for the wider area and the Met office. When fire risk is high (which can often be earlier in the year, due to lack of new growth through the dead top growth from last year), trains are followed through the high risk centre section by a "fire patrol", consisting of a crew cab pick-up. Various different vehicles and versions of this have been used over the years, but it usually ends up with any available staff, at least 2 (except in emergencies) being used. This tends to be the carriage cleaners, but has on a number of the occasions been the GM and other Managers (I well remember a meeting held over a meal at one of Pickering more select restaurants to which the GM turned up looking like he had just come off the footplate and with a distinct hint of "burnt bracken" as an "aftershave" after some fire fighting with our now Chairman who was Levisham Signalman that day!).

We also aim to minimise the risk by controlled burning, but this ordinarily has to be completed by 31st March. Hence, at the moment, the volunteer lineside clearance team and the carriage cleaners are busy getting rid of last year's dead growth in a controlled manner.

I believe the North Norfolk certainly used to have a CCT with a water and beaters on each train in times of high fire risk and I think the Strathspey may have had similar arrangements.

Steven

 

Try just one (on the worst offender in the fleet). See if it works. Judging from results elsewhere there should be some fuel economy which will pay for the job. No excuse then to run over-large motive power save for "I like big chuffers" syndrome.

Paul H.

 

Being in, statistically, the driest area in the country and being surrounded by arable land, we have to be particularly aware of fire risk, so beaters and re-chargeable extinguishers are carried in brake vans during times of risk. I could never see the point of having a dedicated fire train as in most cases of fires in open country, if you can't control them in the first five minutes, you've had it!
Our experience has been that lineside fires tend to be associated with certain locos and drivers. "Brookfield", our Bagnall 0-6-0PT, came out of ticket in 2005 and has not worked since and a particular driver moved on to pastures new about the same time. Both had been associated with lineside fires previously, but we have had no fires caused by steam engines since! We have, however, had two caused by diesels!

 

Fire Brigade called out to a field grass fire today in East Sussex ( not anywhere near a railway). Fire was travelling at great speed fanned by the wind though the dried out roots of last years growth and leaping past the guys fighting it. In the end a large fire tender had to be deployed. Amazing really considering the Soil Moisture Deficit in the area is 0 at the moment.

Brian

 

GCR has a CCT with fire fighting equipment which is usually on one of the sets all summer. I recon we could do with another really.

 

The Fire Train used to make a round trip after last service train on occasion, using the service train loco from time to time, to top up the many trackside water butts so all were filled, check condition of fire beaters and replace as necessary. Whether it soaked the line side during hot spells I cannot recall

The vehicles in the train were the Department's stores, office, accommodation. Their map of the line and line side was excellent, there was a radio system from the carriage control room, and parties with radio patrolled sections of the line side in hot and dry weather, they trained to call in the Fire Service to the Railway , in conjunction with their map when their patrols or loco crews reported a blaze.

A valued industrial service was provided by managing provision, weighing and date checks of extinguishers, fire blankets, and whatever else was required around the railway's workshops, sheds and mess rooms. Can't recall if first aid

Many of them entered the Fire Service for their employment or at retained stations and there was IIRC a sudden departure when Fire Service rules
prohibited working for a third party or volunteer fire activity such as their work at Bluebell. "Trumpton"** as they were called, in a friendly manner, were volunteers doing a job that no-one else was doing and respected for it, they went on to have vehicles and a shed known as the fire station, they were excellent and hard working at the events such as the Steam Fair Events, providing fire fighting points and radio connected patrols for fire watching and watering traction engines.

@@ "Trumpton" was an animated tv programme of the 60's and 70's, based on nearby Plumpton. Chigley, where Windy Miller ran the windmill was Chailey. down the road from Sheffield Park, so it was adopted for the Fire Department.

Neil Cameron

 

Interesting Neil, so why was the Fire service disbanded a few years ago then?

Chris Willis:

 

We at the KESR take fire risk very seriously. Some people may complain about our use of the DMMU, but it is partially used to reduce fire risk. Mind you, I'm not sure how many of our crews are impressed by the "Fire Risk" reminder sign at the bottom of Wittersham bank! Starting away from Wittersham with 5 on in the Down direction must take real skill to minimise the risk.

 

Was that the answer?

 

That's it.

NC

 

Are you sure about that Neil?, is there something you can add to that?

Kind regards
Chris Willis!

 

Just to add I h

Chris

I answered the OP's questions on the fire train , the point well made in the thread about the current v good state of line side clearance
is the best reason reason not to re-create the Fire Train.

The move to the Fire Station came from within the Department. What happened after that is not known to me, except
that senior volunteers, number unknown to me, found that their continued work at the Bluebell Fire Department
did not fit with their revised employment conditions, a factor suggested in a private conversation during a visit to the line.

My time at Bluebell was 1970 - 1994, which encompasses the input of the Fire Train. If you have something to add about what led to the closure
of the Fire Station I can add nothing to it, I was not there.

Neil