WCRC Licence Suspended

The market will be the dictator ultimately though the short timescale is an immediate problem.
The Scottish government don't seem that interested in the tracks at Stranraer being lifted either, which damages the prospects of tourist trains using that line.

 

Being an exiled jock is of no interest to her, you do not have a vote in a SNP contested seat. Nor are you able to vote in a referendum.

 

Good try and I don't wish to be overtly political here but living in Scotland I am familiar with the usual scenarios. I would expect any response to say that there's nothing the Scottish Govt can do & point the finger firmly in the direction of Westminster. That's what happens on a daily basis. Nobody is remotely interested by the way as there's an election on. Unless the Gricer vote is seen as a possible way to gain election perhaps? Naw.

 

Bit harsh. I'd just give credit for the initiative and overlook the finer points Might just start an avalanche that focuses minds.

 

Regarding the potential business being lost while WCRC is suspended, there are different angles to it:

• The losses to WCRC themselves, either through not running and so not getting paid, or through contracting out to DBS and others at (probably) a higher price than they've agreed with their customers;
• The wider losses to businesses at tour destinations.

Don't forget that WCRC run many diesel tours as well as the steam tours that most of us care most about. The impact on small towns, such as Mallaig will be most serious, and in larger destinations (e.g. Scarborough, Carlisle) the impact will be more import for businesses close to the stations.

 

The incentive is money at the end of the day, perhaps with a little bit of prestige added in. DBS are a commercial company and charters are not the core business so they would have to weigh up the costs and benefits. Something fairly 'simple' and more importantly regular like the Jacobite could probably be picked up without too much difficulty, the 'one off' railtours that need much more planning might be different.

 

But if it was a matter of expediting the transfer of accredited drivers from WCR to DBS to cover specific things like the Jacobite would that be so terrible? The same guys driving the same locos and coaches on the same tracks under an approved safety regime? Why should that take forever? I can see that anything more ambitious like new entry will take a long time.

My impression from my one trip on the Jacobite was that about five coaches worth were on coach tours of Scotland. I could imagine there might be quite a lot of thinking going on, but perhaps the multiplier argument will not work quite like that except at the very local (Mallaig) level. If the Jacobite is not running, they will do something else.

 

Couldn't agree more

 

Actually, DBS is not "the only game in town", is it? I can think of another TOC with an approved safety system to operate vac-braked steam trains at modest speeds on a limited and fairly isolated section of the national network, fitting in with a regular DMU service - to whit, the NYMR. I agree that it would take a fairly extraordinary set of circumstances, starting with the withdrawal of WCRC from their flagship operation, but the NYMR's Whitby operations could form the basis of a replacement West Highland service, perhaps using the same group of drivers as in recent years, perhaps in partnership with ScotRail in some form? There are already connections between the two operations via NELPG (62005 is a regular Jacobite loco) and Ian Riley, whose Black Fives have spent much time based at both Grosmont and Fort William.

I don't for a moment expect it would be easy, and given what Bean-counter and others have written, it may be impractical or not viable, but I'll bet I'm not the only one to have thought of this alternative.

 

Apropos calling on the politicians: certainly they have bigger fish to fry for the next few weeks, and certainly even after the election there should be no suggestion of cutting any corners on safety. But they might be able to grease a few wheels and/or provide some financial incentives for either WCRC or someone else to get the show back on the (iron) road.

 

I really think Ms Sturgeon et al will have bigger fish to fry for 10 days or so from 8th May.............

 

Dear Ms Fishface...

 

Politics can be important and it is worth making the effort. It was political pressure that ensured the retention of the delay liability cap on charter trains. Political pressure can make the difference in the approach of the regulatory body. 'Do your best to find an acceptable solution' is a lot different to 'Do your best to put every obstacle in the way.' At the end of the day, all need to be satisfied that the operation is safe and robust but how you go about that can be fundamental.

 

Figures provided by the All Party Report on the value of Heritage Railways give (for 2012) a total of about 2000 charter trains, of which 520 involved steam haulage. The economic value to turnover ratio for heritage railways is estimated at 2.7:1. Whether this applies to the charter market, I don't know.

 

A couple of people have raised similar points, so I will reply to my own comments that prompted them!

My apologies if I had mis-understood what Al was saying, but I took it as being he was referring to two possible but different scenarios if WCRC were unable to pick up the Jacobite operation in its usual timescale - firstly, "the certification of other providers" and then the specific case of DBS. As DBS already have a nationwide Safety Certificate and also have steam on their Safety Certificate/included in their SMS, I actually took the 2 as distinct and my above comments related to "other providers".

For DBS (who are the only other people whose current certificate would seem to cover the operation), there is the matter of resources and in particular whether steam drivers "sign" the West Highland Extension. Acquiring route knowledge is probably the simplest of the "certifications" that could be acquired, but having sufficient crews to resource the service may be a larger challenge. Either way, I would suggest that such a scenario is most likely to arise as DBS working the services under contract to WCRC. I am not sure (though a web search may reveal the answer) as to the exact Track Access arrangements for the Jacobite but you can bet Carnforth will have those paths secured and would need to release them to an alternative operator - something they are unlikely to do unless there is no option for them to promote the trains, even if initially with another operator acting running them.

The point about seeking to bring political influence to bear being at best a blind alley and at worst counter-productive has been well made. It will be perhaps a test of Ms Sturgeon's professionalism as to whether she realises that politics and safety regulation don't mix well - without wishing to appear partisan, I suspect the fact that the SNP have had a number of years governing at Holyrood means she probably will, whilst some of the smaller parties might be more willing to jump on such a "band-wagon" (I am thinking of reports of the Green's first experience of actually running a Council in Brighton).

Steven

 

Presumably 2.7:1 is against a typical heritage railway ticket in the £10 - £20 range though, i.e. a typical off-railway spend of up to about £50 for every ticket. Much harder to believe the same multiplier applies to charter trains with an average ticket price of around £100 or more - it would mean the average passenger spending another £250 -£300 each on hotels, restaurants etc.

The figure of 500 steam hauled trains suggests an industry with a core gross annual income (before multiplier) of perhaps £25million, allied to a somewhat larger diesel charter business. That core income has to pay loco owners, rolling stock owners, NR, the operators and promoters, for any onboard catering included in the ticket price etc. - everyone from the coal merchant to the wine merchant. I suspect the top ten heritage lines in the country would collectively comfortably exceed that figure of £25m.

Tom

 

I lived in Brighton for many years and still have friends there. They are now not keen on the Greens at all, even though some of them voted for Green candidates.

 

The MD of WCRC is without doubt a steam enthusiast like many. Unusually he has the means to acquire and restore several locomotives. He also had the means and motivation to establish a TOC which presents the opportunity to offset the costs of owning the steam locos. Charters do likewise for other loco owners minded to restore engines for mainline use.
The point being owners are principally motivated by restoring and running the locos for its own sake and the personal satisfaction it brings. It is not a commercial venture other than in the sense of paying the bills as opposed to the normal profit motive.
Having the TOC also enables other commercial activity which makes a contribution. In the case of the Jacobite it must be very profitable because there is enough to hire locos despite having suitable locos in the stable.

 

I think we have only 12, and most of those are in the South of the country. Also do not forget we also use our own fireman, who are all driver's. This puts a drain on resources for the company's core work. This situation is not likely to change soon as we (traincrew) do not wish it to, safety reasons. When I say safety reason's we prefer to have someone who we can trust and rely on on each side of the footplate, particularly when it comes to sighting signals that the driver cannot see because there is a boiler in the way! We would not go down the West Coast way of crewing.

As far as taking on WCRC drivers, highly unlikely, why would DBS wish to increase its wage bill for drivers of limited use. There is not enough work for them 365 days a year. DBS do not employ part time drivers, so they would all have to be on full time contracts. Also would the WCRC drivers wish to transfer to DBS? Some left because they didn't want to work full time.
DBS does not make much out of charter trains, so are not overly bothered about them.
As for a couple of other posts, DBS drivers do not need to retire at 65 or shortly to be 66, have not needed to for a few years. Indeed ex Eastleigh steam driver Micky Hunt went past 65 a little while ago, he has now retired though.

Also, those of us suitably trained can still drive 47's, or any other older diesel loco's, provided the loco is accepted by the company.

And before anyone asks, I will not comment on the Wootton Bassett incident. I could get myself in one hell of a lot of bother by doing so.

 

the only other possible Jacobite operator is DBS, i cant see any other option whilst WCRC are suspended