If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Main Line Steam - Possible ramifications of the WCRC suspension

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by johnofwessex, Apr 11, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    22,591
    Likes Received:
    22,721
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    As I understand it all DBS steam crews are full time employees with a day job on diesels and their steam work is patched into their normal rosters or on their rest days subject to the usual hours restrictions. So the chances of matching someone at the last minute will be unlikely without a wider switching of rosters. But that was done in steam days - read Bert Hooker's autobiography - so I'm sure it's possible now, if there is a will from management.

    More to the point, my guess is that the DBS folk will be most comfortable with the locos they know and that limits the options still further.
     
  2. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,259
    Likes Received:
    2,695
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Taunton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If you are used to driving/firing a Castle class, and when you arrive for work you have a Merchant Navy class for the first time, the firing and driving will be different so could soon lose time until they get the steaming right.
     
  3. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    7,897
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It is more than just being used to a loco these days; as far as I am aware, you need to be proven competent.
     
  4. Duty Druid

    Duty Druid Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    11,112
    Likes Received:
    4,704
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That makes sense, given crews don't exactly work with them every day.

    Another tick in the safety case box/paper trail............
     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    22,591
    Likes Received:
    22,721
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Precisely that. I believe that with Clan Line there is a clear understanding between the MNLPS and DBS as to the role of the Traction Inspector and also the society representative on the footplate. Records are also kept of how the loco is driven and fired, coal and water used etc etc. It's tried and tested and there for a reason. No doubt similar arrangements are in place with some other loco groups.
     
  6. Duty Druid

    Duty Druid Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    11,112
    Likes Received:
    4,704
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    One would like to think so for the main part, BUT given the title of this thread, it would "appear" that one of the main players hasn't.............
     
  7. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,096
    Likes Received:
    4,484
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    East Grinstead
    From the RTC website :

    BUXTON SPA EXPRESS 18TH APRIL - POSTPONED
    13-Apr-2015
    Please be advised that due to ongoing operational restrictions the Buxton Spa Express scheduled to run on Saturday 18th April has had to be postponed. We apologise for any disappointment and inconvenience this might cause. A revised date will be announced as soon as possible and the website will be updated accordingly.


    And from the SD Facebook Re 19/4 to Kingswear trip : - " at the moment we are very hopeful that this trip will run, but will confirm this as soon as we know (hopefully in the next couple of days)."
     
    mike1522 likes this.
  8. hatherton hall

    hatherton hall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    351
    I am a lover of mainline steam and always will be. But I think, even ahead of the findings of the ORR and WCR satisfying NR before 15th May, there are companies whose existence depends on mainline steam. I think particularly of Steam Dreams. A marvelous company with superb personnel and they are now starved of any business. SME's (small to medium enterprises) have cash flow situations. They have to pay their staff. With no revenue coming in, SME's such as this are in an impossibleand worrying situation. It can lead to staff being made redundant or worse still, going out of business not that I include Steam Dreams necessarily in that scenario.

    Worrying times? You better believe it. I simply do not know where we will be 12 months from now. It is a horrible time for all of us who love mainline steam. Absolutely awful. There are no guarantees anywhere of mainline steam's future on the scale that we have enjoyed for many years now and taken for granted that it would go on for ever. This is now at risk and although DBS can take up some of the slack, it is the possibility of star turns like the Great Britain, Jacobite etc. which leaves me just depressed.
     
  9. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,383
    Likes Received:
    5,368
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    Which confirms that WCRC's success has being doing the work that no-one else wanted and creating a viable business from it. Whilst not deliberately creating a monopoly it has made WCRC the sole supplier of many services including touring and support services to the railway industry hence its suspension has created problems throughout the industry.

    Like many I hope that the problems can be resolved quickly but the slack created by the suspension will take a long time to recover and - I suspect - 2015 will be a barren year with hope that all can be restored for normal operations in 2016.
     
  10. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    19,264
    Likes Received:
    12,516
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Best case scenario is that WCRC gets its house in order and gets its licence back, worse case scenario ORR find there is a case to answer and WCRC in effect cease to be a TOC in which case DBS are the only act in town, they cant take everything so main line steam becomes much rarer until someone else takes over what WCRC did. if there is anyone who can?
     
  11. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    19,264
    Likes Received:
    12,516
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    If Steam Dreams Do Run the 19/4 trip , and there happens to be a Merchant Navy at the head, will there be a spate of last minute bookings;)
     
  12. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,259
    Likes Received:
    2,695
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Taunton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Also the owners of the engines could take a hit if they don't get the hire charges in and the 10 year clock is ticking away.
     
  13. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    19,264
    Likes Received:
    12,516
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    i think you will see some engines coming off the mainline and running on heritage railways and a much smaller main line pool of engines, for instance, just the JH engines plus clan line and the dutchess and Tysley's pool
     
  14. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,748
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Location:
    Oxford
    This will be especially hard for locos reaching the end of their "ticket", needing to top up their overhaul funds. I'm thinking of 60007 in particular, but the same could be said for 46115 and maybe others, too?
     
  15. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,748
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Location:
    Oxford
    The Tyseley locos won't be able to work on the main line until WCRC, or a replacement heritage TOC, is back, since they are vac-only. The exception is 6201 Princess Elizabeth, which is currently an honourary Tyseley loco, though I don't suppose she'll be ready for work for several months even if TLW and the Society throw everything at finishing her ASAP.

    To have a chance of working with DBS, a loco must be air-braked. Just at the moment, that means Britannia, Clan Line, 6233, Sir Nigel, Ian Riley's Fives and Tornado. Later in the year, we may see Braunton, 60009, Lizzie, Flying Scotsman and Tangmere (if DBS and WCRC sort out the paperwork) added to that list.

    Just at the moment, the decision to send 4464 to the MHR for a year, and to "rest" 5029, rather than rushing to overhaul them, looks very sensible.
     
  16. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Standard reading for most of the enthusiasts I grew up with. Including the updated edition(s), of which I certainly read the second as well as the original. By R C T Rolt if my memory serves me right.

    OK, just checked, it was L T C Rolt. Not far out.
     
  17. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,358
    Likes Received:
    2,418
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Westcountry
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Whatever the outcome, this atmosphere of uncertainty discourages people generally from booking for any specials. Apart from the train fare for a steam special, that may be substituted by diesel, and I think you'll find the terms and conditions allow this without refund, there are often hotels and transport arrangements to get to the starting point that are not refundable.

    Nor would I care to rely on an insurance policy - they are pretty clever at weaseling out of paying claims.

    All pretty horrifying - so much money and effort from those who have worked hard to provide main line steam. Sadly I can imagine the glee of those spoilsports who are against main line steam. We can only hope for light at the end of this tunnel; main line steam has in the past nearly 50 years been very resilient and determined.

    John
     
  18. 83B

    83B Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2005
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    121
    I still have my old Red for Danger from 50 odd years ago. It is now is hardback format and updated. Just as riveting a read as ever. It does pose the question. Who would want to have been a signalman or engine driver back then when there was so many dangers. A steam driver who could barely see the signals through the smog, or a sigalman without the later protection on interlocking that prevented levers being pulled in error or track circuits so that if a train was standing in the path of another, then the signals simply could not be pulled off. In Red for Danger, the shortcomings are amply illustrated and with it the serious consequences.
     
    KentYeti likes this.
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    22,591
    Likes Received:
    22,721
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It's been great that the RTC in particular (plus, of course WCRC) has taken steam to interesting places but that needs crews to have the route knowledge, not to mention the complexity of planning by NR. For example, we know from Nigel Dobbing that the Wansbeck took rather a lot of planning and negotiation to get to the point when it almost ran.

    Meanwhile, it has been possible for DBS to factor into its own business the steam element of the British Pullman because the dates are known up to a year in advance, the route is a standard one that is known very well by the Hither Green crews, and the whole trip can be done by one crew on a single shift. Something similar can also be said about the Shakespeare Express and arrangements for that using West Coast crews. And then there is also The Jacobite.

    It can't have escaped everyone's notice that steam charters often run on different dates from the original plan, or not at all, and often with substitute motive power (that is usually steam). That is not ideal for many reasons. Perhaps, a way forward, that actually may suit NR, is to pare back main line steam to a number of standard and approved routes for which many crews can 'sign' based on substantial route knowledge. In the case of DBS, for example, they would only then need to concentrate on having enough steam crews as one would expect that through their day job their route knowledge would be strong on the approved lines anyway (or at least, it could become strong through their diesel work).

    So, if we assume a negative outcome for a moment - i.e. that things will not be the same again - there must still be options.
    In an ideal world perhaps the main line charter business needs to work towards:
    - standard routes on which it is straightforward for NR to arrange paths that fit neatly with the national services
    - routes where multiple crews have extensive route knowledge
    - routes on which all steam can be gauged
    - locomotives that present minimal risk. (Sorry, that's a loaded point but we have to face up to reality here)
    - destinations that provide for a decent day out that is not a mission for passengers, crew and staff
    - much more advance control by the TOC(s) over dates to ensure that they can service the demand and with backup staff.
     
  20. 83B

    83B Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2005
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    121
    Very interesting points here Big Al.

    Standard routes take us back to the SLOA days of the 1970's and 1980's when trains between Didcot and Sheffield, or over the Welsh Marches for example, were the norm. To go back to that format, albeit I can understand the logistical elements to your points, would be a massive backwards step. Regarding long days, it never ceases to amaze me that these steam tours are generally packed, even dining, and so customers are clearly prepared to get up at 5am and not get home until 5am, the next day!!

    Let's just hope that WCR survives and normal service is resumed as soon as possible. One hopes also that NR and ORR take into account the excellent track record that WCR has over many years and hundreds of trains operated perfectly safely and without incident.
     
    JohnMc and nanstallon like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page