Main Line Steam - Possible ramifications of the WCRC suspension

I agree that if there was an alternative TOC, they would likely need to have their hand in several pies to make it viable, and likely even wider than the heritage / charter scene. I wonder how much WCRC revenue comes from the charter side of things and how much from other streams, such as route conducting Tampers, etc.? I think it will be a long time before any new 'charter' TOC can get anywhere near the level that WCRC have reached and there may simply not be enough work to sustain multiple charter-oriented TOCs/FOCs anyway. At this stage, I think it would be far better for everyone to rally around WCRC and support them to continue as a much stronger *and more open* organisation. From what has been posted so far, I have my doubts if much will change at Carnforth and the way they interact with other's, so there may need to be other options looked at in the future.

 

I can understand where your coming from but there is nothing ungrateful or damaging about criticising the way West Coast operate when safety, livelihoods and reputations are at risk.

IMO they've should've received much more criticism over the ban last year, but sadly a lot of people seem so obsessed with the idea of anti-steam conspiracies that they overlooked the fact that Network Rail and Phil Verster may, if anything, have let them off too lightly.

 

Could not agree more





Fat Controller defo not like this

 

Not like this either lol

 

Its not a question of raining on people's parades- ORR has a job to do just like everyone else on the railways. Its a question of whether they, after due consultation and subsequent deliberation, think WCRC are capable of reforming their ways in the light of events where they have appeared to have failed to recognise the seriousness of the situation. I suspect that after recent press-related events, there is some way to go in this department. I also suspect that NR have no reason to lift the ban until the ORR have finished and analysed the results of their consultation, so this will probably go beyond May 15-16. Then add the circa-eight week notice for any new tours to enter NR's system, and you'll be looking at August at the earliest for a return to 'normal', providing we have a best-case scenario.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to see a "For Sale" sign go up at Carnforth. The business is viable but the management is badly flawed IMO.
I'd give a penny for Mr J H's thoughts at this time, (and a couple of other names)

 

Where on earth does that leave the Jacobites for instance, where people from all over UK. Europe and elsewhere head for Scotland for steam in the most wonderful of scenery. My Best Man (Hi Franc) has booked in July for a week with his family from Holland. Maybe I should tell him to book somewhere else.

 

The reports in RAIL and SR suggest that the ownership arrangements are quite complicated.

 

I suspect you know the answer 83B. In that event, either the Jacobite doesn't happen or some kind of deal happens between DBS, WCR and let's say Ian Riley to enable it to happen under the DBS flag. Maybe, just maybe, the risk/reward/brownie point balance might be good enough to make that a runner.

 

Isn't the Jacobite a West Coast "product" which is effectively owned by WCR because there seems to be no involvement from any other operator such as RTC? I imagine that either someone would by the "copyright" to use the name or completely rebrand it. Manning such an extensive programme of steam over many months, should the unthinkable happen with WCR, would surely prove problematic as there would surely be a shortage of crews.

 

Maybe so but in the current situation nothing is impossible. WC credibility is shot to hell, the premier UK annual railtour is a disaster, nobody knows when or even if WC will be allowed to return as things stand. Who in their right mind would book anything at the moment if there is even a sniff of a WC connection? Answer.......nobody. That means the UK support railtour industry at the moment has almost ceased to exist.
We ALL, tour companies, paying customers, ALL the employees in the industry, want to get back to work, yes, us enthusiasts as well, but it's a hard fact the WC management have allowed this disaster to happen, they have for quite some time now had a bit of a cavalier attitude and approach in running their business, and now the authorities have bit them and bit them hard and many many people are paying the price.

 

A quick check reveals that it is still possible to book with both WCRC and Compass for tours within the duration of the suspension and beyond. No mention whatsoever of any potential operational restrictions.

 

Not just West Coast either it seems. If we are to believe what is reported, the Torbay Express on 24th May is cancelled due to low bookings. There are many who will argue that this is because of a lack of confidence with the travelling public as to the safety of steam trains on the mainline whether WCR or DBS. In the past, when a tour has been cancelled the bookings for a different tour on the same day has soared with trains selling out. Sadly this does not now seem to be the case if the TE is an example. Dark times!

 

As long as there's a chance of them surviving, I'm sure that WCRC will cling on to the Jacobite for as long as they possibly can. It must provide a significant proportion of their revenue stream, so I'm sure they would be more than reluctant to give any other operator a foot in the door, even if that means that it doesn't run at all this year.

 

This is a prime case of putting two and two together and making five.

 

Indeed. My understanding of the situation with the Torbay Express is that the promoter had - quite independently of the WCRC situation - tried an experiment to have trains starting much earlier in the season that previously, and it seems the market wasn't there to justify that decision. Trying to extrapolate from that to suggest a general failure of confidence in the railtour market is tenuous: they could be related, but just as likely that the core clientele for the Torbay Express would, as in previous years, simply rather visit Torbay in July and August than May.

Tom

 

You are right of course and I accept that the safety of steam train scenario "could be related" but is even more likely that it is down to an earlier start for the TE this year. That said, the cancellation is very early, nearly 20+ days before the train is due to run. Promoters will generally leave it until a much later date before pulling the plug and with the situation with WCR steam tours, it does surprise me that they have done this so early. I think if you check what happens with Steam Dreams, if they are suffering a tour with low bookings, they will give it a big shove from their marketing people to get some more punters on board. It does remain a bit of a mystery this one.

 

Pure conjecture, but surely the obvious conclusion is that DBS require a longer period of notice of cancellation than WCRC, which considering they use staff with "day jobs" rather than largely hired "as required" would not perhaps be surprising.

Steven

 

But from UKSteam there never was another tour booked for the same day as the 24th May TE so I cannot see any relationship between this and the WCRC situation and possibly more to do with punters not wanting to take a risk with the weather in late May.