GWSR Broadway Developments

We are the 'GWR'.

The chairman and commercial director gave an extensive interview to Heritage Railway, issue 188. In it, the GWSR was described as 'a living museum'. This is also how I felt about the railway.
We should not be looking to build a station where a freelance roof has this or that advantage, but rebuild Broadway (Italics) station as far as possible (given building regs and certain practical limitations such as bigger toilets). We have gone to great lengths to achieve authenticity with the GWR signal box, running in board finials and posts, crowd barrier posts, lamp posts, door plates, running in board letters etc, and often at personal expense. It is heartbreaking to see that the vision is not shared with the very typical lofty GWR canopy. Just look at the Toddington picture above - it is wonderful. This view is to be replaced by a brick wall and box section steel trusses sticking out. ''How many people will look up'' - how much credit do we give our visitors to our living museum?

 

Oh! I thought you were the GWSR? Maybe that is the underlying issue and where the parties concerned diverge.

 

Not at all. Let me quote the Chairman of the GWSR from the Share Prospectus for Bridges for Broadway, which raised 500000 pounds of punters money. " So what are the benefits of buying shares? Well bottom line we believe it is about preservation"

Note he didnt say we believe it is about erecting cheap structures so we can get our hands on the honeypot that is Broadway that much quicker. Doubt he would have got half a million quid if he had, as it was it was oversubscribed.

I wonder what shareholders are thinking reading this?

 

Whoever drafted the signalling diagram on page 1 of this thread clearly doesn't share your vision either, I'm afraid to say, because it looks extremely inauthentic for a relatively small passing station (it appears to have been drafted as the final "line open through to Honeybourne" version), even one intended to be used as a terminus occasionally. I don't understand the fixed distant at all and can only assume it's a signalling beginner's mistake.

 

I'm a driver, not a signalman, but the diagram looks fine to me. Broadway will not be a relatively small passing station, it will be a terminus, possibly for many years, and the diagram reflects that, and also its importance to the GWSR. It is not just "another extension to nowhere," it will be a major passenger magnet and, hopefully, a considerable contributor to the Railway's coffers.

I am not sure which fixed distant you have the problem with, but the Down distant would be fixed because trains would be approaching a terminus, and the Up distant, which is well beyond the Railway's current boundary, is presumably included to cater for the eventual extension to Honeybourne. It is fixed because the railway is no longer double track, so future Up trains from Honeybourne, will have to cross over to the Up platform, if they are crossing here, so would accept the permanent Caution.

The Down distant could be motorised in the future, if and when the Honeybourne extension is completed, as Down trains could run through.

That's my take on it.

 

I'm slightly confused about your Up and Down there - I assume from the labelling of the platforms that Down is "from Honeybourne" and Up is "from Toddington".

What puzzled me is that trains approaching from Toddington first encounter a worked distant, which is normal enough assuming it's not a terminus by this time - but then the next signal they encounter is an Outer Home with a fixed distant under it. That's very weird, when all the signals are under the control of the same signalbox, and I'd be interested to see if anyone can give me any examples of it being used anywhere else.

My reaction to the whole thing, incidentally, was that they'd started off copying the Kidderminster diagram - it is intended to be a terminus for a while, after all - but decided it didn't have enough signals! If you think about it from the point of view of a driver, coming from Toddington, you see very similar signals to a driver of an Up train approaching Kidderminster - but with that extra outermost Home that KR doesn't have with the inexplicable Distant underneath it.

 

I used what was on the diagram, but Up was always to Paddington, Down the other way.

If you're after an example, consider Bewdley. In the Down direction, (from Kidderminster), one encounters a worked Distant outside Bewdley tunnel, which tells you the Down Outer Home and Down Inner Home, (bracket) signals are clear, for the Down Main, (into Platform 1) If the Distant under the Down Inner Home is clear, this tells you that the Home signal on the Goods Shed and the Starter signal, (at the end of Platform 1) are also clear and that the Bewdley North signalman has taken out the token for BY - AR, or BY - HY, and that the next section is clear.

If you are routed through the Back Road, (platform 3), the Distant outside the tunnel will be at Caution, although the Outer and Inner Homes may well be clear, and the Distant under the Down Inner Home for the Back Road is fixed.

The system is the same for the Up direction. The Up Distant, (worked) is by Orchard Crossing. If this is clear, it tells you that the Up Outer Home, round the bend past the Tenbury wall, (echoed by a Banner Repeater) is clear, as is the Up Inner Home on the bracket signal and that you are signalled into the Up Main, (platform 2). If you have been accepted to Kidderminster, the Distant under the Up Main Inner Home will be cleared, which tells you that the Kidderminster Starter and Advanced Starter, (Section signal), are clear.

If you are routed through the Back Road, the Up Distant will be at Caution, although the Up Outer Home may be clear, as may be the Up Inner Home, under which is a Fixed Distant. Platform 3 is bi - directional and the signalling regs are complicated, but there is your example. Have a close look next time you are there.

Regards,

jtx

 

Ah, I thought you would mention Bewdley. Bewdley is a good example of signalling when you have two boxes close together. If I go over your example again with more detail hopefully it will show why Broadway is wrong.

In the Down direction you pass Bewdley South's Down From KR Distant as you leave the tunnel, then the Down From KR Home, at which point you enter South's station limits. The next signals are the bracket by South box which has South's section signals and North's Distant signals, worked for the main and fixed for the Back Road. As you pass this you leave station limits and enter the block section. If you're on the main you then pass North's Down Main Home just before the platform and enter North's station limits, and then the To Shrewsbury Starting signal at the end of the platform. On the Back Road there's no equivalent and you don't enter station limits until leaving the station platform. After that, you have the section signal at which you enter the section to Arley or Highley.

In the Up direction it works the same way: you have North's Distant, the repeater for the home then the home itself, then the section signals for either main or Back Road with South's Distants below them, and you enter the block section. The block section ends with South's Home signals at the south end of the platforms and you enter South's station limits, then next you reach South's To KR section signal and enter the block section.

My point here is what the Distant signals mean. If a Distant is off, it means that all of the stop signals controlled by the same signal are off and you will have a clear run through station limits and into the next block section. So if South's Down From KR Distant is off it means that you have clear signals through South's station limits and into the South-North section. If then you see North's Distant is also off the same applies to all North's signals and you will have a clear run through to the Home(s) of whichever box is named on the token.

Compare this though to the Broadway diagram. At Broadway there's one box. Ergo that first worked Distant for trains from Toddington, if it's off, should only ever mean that all of the stop signals must be off, up to and including the section signal that admits the train into the Honeybourne section. To mean anything else is changing the meaning of a Distant signal! So then at the following outermost Home you also have a fixed Distant - what can that Distant legitimately refer to?

Moreover I don't think I've ever heard of a Distant signal controlled by a box that is underneath a stop signal controlled by the same box, apart from Intermediate Block which doesn't apply here.

The only legitimate explanation would be that the fixed distant is "controlled by" a different signalbox - but that would imply that that box's outermost Home was within half a mile or so of Broadway's outermost Home, which seems unlikely given the length of layout implied by the diagram.

 

Unless Jo can confirm otherwise, I suspect the signalling diagram was done my Malcolm Walker, one of our few paid staff who looks after all the S&T stuff, a very clever hap who has designed virtually all the signalling and comms on our railway, so I'd be surprised if there wasn't a good reason for everything here. I personally suspect that there might be an element of the S&T department wanting to justify the use of such a large frame and clear Winchcombe yard of a large amount of signal posts! I'm sure if you asked on the S&T blog you might get a response answering some of your questions.

 

The signalling and track layout is extensive with numerous double bracket signals, two full size loops and sidings.

The Bluebelle by contrast has made do with one simple loop at East Grinstead, so could the GWSR not do this, at least at first.

They would then have the extra funds they need to build a pukka GWR Canopy for the station and keep their many members and shareholders happy.

I have written to the Chairman suggesting this as a compromise way forward and await his reply.

 

David, Have you not considered that the drawing shows what is the "Final" proposed layout - that allows the interlocking trays and locking to be worked out. Would you be suprised if the actual track installation started with a basic loop and that all the other loops and sidings were added as the P-way and S&T had time and resources available...

 

You make a good point and such a gradualist approach conserving time and money for an ideal result by the Board would be applauded.

They ,the Board could, also consider this approach to the Station Buildings, with a say a waiting room and board crossing at first. Then a footbridge. Then the station itself. All as fund raising progressed for each element. This way shortage of money or time would be no bar to a GWR station appropriate to the line.

 

I really would encourage anyone who has the slightest interest or concern to email the chairman, I've had a very pleasant conversation with him over the past couple of days and, whilst I still don't entirely agree, I understand a little more the decisions being made.

 

If you look at the Broadway Blog you will see that the team rebuilding Broadway Station already have a footbridge which is being restored on site, and most of the other items required have been sourced already or are in the pipeline. However, I do agree that it is likely that the main Station waiting room on Platform 1 could be progressed before, say, the smaller building planned for Platform 2 (recreating what existed pretty much until 1963).

 

Horsted Keynes also has what might be referred to as inner and outer distants, with the inner distants also working and all controlled by one box. I would guess that the advantage is that when the outer home is not required (i.e. no shunting moves towards the incoming train on the single line) rule 39a does not need to be applied, so the outer home can be left clear. The incoming driver sees the outer distant clear, and knows that stopping will not be required at the outer home. When the outer home is reached, the inner distant then tells them whether they should be prepared to stop at the inner home and subsequent signals. They should have sufficient route knowledge to know the meaning of the signals at that particular location.

As long as the inner distant has adequate stopping distance beyond it, I don't see anything objectionable about that arrangement. Makes for slightly more efficient working of the locomotive, if nothing else. You could consider it as an intermediate block arrangement if it makes you feel better, only in rear of the box rather than in advance (which I believe does/used to exist in some parts of the national network).

 

Ah Kinghambranch, slightly ahead of you there. Have been following the blog and visiting the site since the first section of platform 1a was built. Sponsored the telephone box. Sponsored the Signal Box Windows. Dared to dream the dream that maybe Broadway would arise from the rubble complete and as it once was. A dream the Broadway Area Group working in all weathers for free every week for five long years also shared no doubt.

Now this seeming betrayal by a Board that has no interest in Preservation.

Well we live in hope. I still haven't heard from the Chairman however.

 

My sincere apologies, but from your previous post you gave me the impression that you weren't aware that a footbridge had been secured and was being restored, I can now see from your post above that you not only know that but you have done much to help the Broadway team achieve progress on what could still be a wonderful GWR station. As regards hearing from the Chairman, as one of my previous bosses used to say (and it applies to an awful lot of posts on an awful lot of threads on Nat Pres) "If you don't like the answer, don't ask the blooming question." (Only he used another word instead of blooming). However, I do hope that you do get an answer and FS123 seems to imply that an answer which makes sense might be forthcoming. I do hope so, as one who has also put some (albeit small) funding into this project.

 

Heritage railways & Centres in the Uk

Forestpines,

I think you misunderstand the definition of a Distant signal. A cleared Distant signal indicates the Stop signals with which it is interlocked are cleared too. It does not have to indicate all Stop signals on that line controlled from one Block Post are Off, though in many cases this is true.

At Bury on the ELR there are four Distant signals in the Up direction, three of which are controlled from Bury South SB. An Up Outer Distant indicating the state of the Up Outer Home. This is followed by an Inner Distant (that is fixed at caution) under the Up Outer Home. So all Up trains must be prepared to stop at the Up Inner Home signal. At the other end of Bury Bolton Street Station, at the back of Bury South SB, there are two more Distant signals on a Gantry under the associated Up Starter signals indicating whether or not the Up Section Signal is off. Only one of these will ever be cleared depending on the route taken out of Bolton Street Station towards Heywood.

(The interesting feature about all the working Distant signals on the ELR is that none have a dedicated lever. All are controlled by the correct operation of their associated Stop signals. These levers are painted Red over Yellow.)

As mentioned above, by ‘8126,’ Route Knowledge of drivers is an important factor. They must know which Stop signal(s) that a specific Distant signal refers to. Hence the use of Conductor Drivers on trains coming off NR onto heritage lines.

 

Looking at the signalling diagram there, and seeing what has been said about having the 2 distants. Would it be explained better with colour light signalling principals? The motor worked first distant meaning a double yellow (or green if the following home over distant signal is pulled off) then the home over distant being your single yellow. Therefore the home over fixed distant will always be read as caution when the home is off, and the worked distant will show as green if the following is pulled off, or caution if it isn't.

Mainline signalling principles based on higher speeds, but as the GWR is an ex mainline, then perfectly in keeping to signal it as a mainline rote.