Should the Permitted speed on Heritage Railways be raised ?

Then he can note the fixed distants as well of which there are 4 EDIT there are 6, forgot Bewdley back road

 

Maybe a Poll would get your answer.

As far as my Heritage railway is concerned most travellers are only out for a pleasant, hassle free, away from the hustle and bustle, enjoyable day out. They have their cars, mainline trains and aircraft when they want to hurry or travel at speed. So slow train speeds and leisurely boat trips are what they want and expect. They mostly see the past as a more leisurely period of time that Heritage railways try to re-create plus the illusion of distant travel is often gained by them by having a decent train length i.e. more than six carriages.

 

Myself and a buddy had the pleasure of a run up to Battersby at the recent NYMR Gala, and what a pleasure it was. I have not had the pleasure of a main line trip behind steam since I was in short trousers , so the nostalgia flowed in bucket loads.

 

I suppose the problem is in the phrasing of the question. Most people have answered a different question, which is 'Could the speed limit be raised'. To which the answer is clear, it's yes. Many hoops would have to be negotiated, but the answer is definitely yes. At the most extreme interpretation, legislation would have to be changed, but even that can be done. And sometimes can be done relatively cheaply if the right ears can be bent. (I'm not talking about corruption, BTW, just knowing exactly who to talk to and when, and presenting a coherent argument)

The question actually asked was 'should .... etc. etc.' And again, as asked the answer is clear, on a blanket basis , no. Any universal rise in the speed limit would be bound to impose extra requirements on lines that have no need or intention to operate at more then 25 mph, which would be the overwhelming majority. It's unrealistic to suppose even a modest rise would be obtainable without increased safety and related requirements, even if the definition of 'railway' could be adjusted.

The interesting question is - are there any lines for whom it would actually be worth seeking either a temporary or permanent derogation for a higher speed, probably to no greater than 40mph at the outside. I would think probably not, given the likely complications, but the optimists among us my care to think about any circumstances where it would be worth the effort. I'd suggest if the GCR gave up, there isn't really much of a business case anywhere, but I might be wrong.

 

Not to mention, a lot of the worked distants will often be on when the traincrew see them. One, indeed, can only be cleared as part of the process of switching its box out.

 

Personally I think 25 mph max is fine. It gives you time to take in the passing scenery, but still makes reasonable progress on your chosen line. For those lines using small-wheeled engines, such as the GW 2-8-0, 25 mph is plenty fast enough.
Surely though as Bean Counter and others have discussed, try to go for a higher limit for your public services and you face jumping through lots of hoops. I doubt if it would be worthwhile, just to go to say 30 mph.
Also as discussed, most of our Heritage lines have stations relatively close together, so you would be incurring more wear on the machinery accelerating and braking.

46118

 

Nicely distilled Pete, the question arose in my mind regarding potentially Super long Preserved lines : The Wensleydale, the Joined up GCR, The GWR from Honeybourne... etc all of these are some way off but all would encompass long stretches of line and potentially an extended length of time to traverse. Of course a midpoint Halt and a minimum of two trains running at anyonetime effectively creates two railways from one...

 

What I always find intriging is BN up distant on, banner and home off..inner home off(when I get to it), BS distant on BS home on. The homes directly linked to the distant on are all off. Signalmans rules I assume.

 

Timetables are planned using an average length of stop at intermediate stations and a line speed of 25 mph. There are occasions when it's inevitable a train might travel faster than 25mph already on a preserved line. I think everybody knows this in reality. You can see countless pictures on the internet of trains "waiting time".

 

Not quite true. Timetables are perhaps planned on a 25 mph max but section times also take into account the need to pass trains and the intervals between them. Thus, with the NYMR's 60 minute interval service, trains between Pickering and Levisham need to run to the speed limit to keep time but those between Levisham & Goathland only need an average of 20 mph and those between Goathland and Grosmont an even more leisurely 15½ mph. to keep time. That is why an up train will often arrive at Levisham a good few minutes before its scheduled time without any speeding.

 

(Sigh) He has done that. It is fortunate that I was not pregnant, or there would have been a premature birth!

 

It is signalling rules, Dave. The Loco Dept. fought a long battle to get the old rule changed, so that we didn't have to come nearly to a stand at the BN Up Outer Home, just because a Down train had been accepted from KR, but had not come to a stand in the station. We pointed out that, whatever the aspect of the signals, we were stopping at Bewdley anyway. We did not think that seeing the BN Up Outer Home at green meant we were right away Stourbridge Junction!

 

I work on a heritage railway (Avon Valley), as a Guard & Signalman - I can't see any point in raising preserved line speed for the following reasons; passengers like a relaxed journey, if they want scenery flying by they can travel on the big railway!

Plus the main elements for me (around not raising speeds) are around safety - raise line speed means greater discipline around infrastructure, not just track & signalling, but of course sighting times on level crossings reduce with higher speed and their maintence becomes even more important, and sighting times for p.way staff working on & about the line reduce too. Plus the maintenance regime would need change for rolling stock running at higher speeds - aside from staff impact.

Final thought, when I was Ops Manager on the AVR, I discussed line speed raising with the late (great) Major Peter Olver of HM Railway Inspectorate, he said 'I know some lines with a 25 mph limit run a bit higher, if we raised it 35, then they'd run higher again'

Paul

 

For those wondering what that was all about: until a year or so ago, all Up trains would be checked at The Bewdley North Up Outer Home signal, which is a couple of hundred yards round a left - hand bend past the end of the Tenbury Wall, where the other branch parted company with the Severn Valley line, if a Down train had been offered, and accepted by Bewdley North box, but had not yet come to a stand in Bewdley station.

Because of its siting, the signal aspect is echoed by a Banner Repeater signal, sited at the end of the Tenbury Wall and visible for a long distance along the straight from Northwood Halt.

Trains would then come nearly to a stand at the signal, before it was pulled off by the signalman, who would be aware of the train's presence because of a track circuit. You then had to chuff away again, using steam and water towards the Inner Home signal, situated at the north end of Wribbenhall Viaduct. If the Down train had still not arrived, this would also be on and you had to brake again, almost to a stand, before it would be pulled off and you could chuff into the station.
You could arrive and find the Down train was still nowhere near Bewdley!

Now you can accelerate away from Northwood crossing up to line speed, and, with the Banner Repeater off, you know that both Homes are off and you can shut off at Orchard Cottage and coast all the way down the gentle gradient into Bewdley, to a stand in the station.

If the Distant is off, you know the signals are clear to Kidderminster, but you will still stop at Bewdley!

Regards,

jtx

P. S. To any SVR S&T genius, if I haven't explained all the above entirely correctly, remember I'm only an Engine Driver and not privy to S&T speak; I've heard you chatting in the pub and didn't understand 95% of what you were saying!

 

That sounds like both the Up Homes are under 'approach control' if the Bobbie has not got a LCR (Line Clear Release) for the advance section. In other words the signalling system will not allow him to 'pull off' until the train is close to the signal and therefore the train crew have had to slow down and brought the train 'under control' thus ensuring that it will stop at the Starter for the next section.

 

Just to complicate things Bewdley has two boxes and thus three sections involved Arley - Bewdley North. Bewdley North - Bewdley South (effectivly the station platform) Bewdley South - Kidderminster. So if there is nothing in platform 2 as you exit the Arley section the immediate advance section is clear to BS homes. The BS distants are under the BN inner homes. Many visitors think the BS homes are starters The BS starter is the Kidderminster side of Sandbourne viaduct.

For those not interested in this sorry for hijacking this thread

 

I'm not a genius, and I'm Signalling Ops not S&T, but I think that all sounds right. I don't think it is specified in the rules that the Down must be "at a stand" to get the Up Distant clear (unlike for single line crossing boxes where that is a requirement) but if it wasn't in practical terms very soon afterwards, there would be Problems.

In signalling terms: if BS clears their signals for a Down train it obstructs the Up Clearing Point, so the Up train has to be accepted under Reg. 5 ("under the warning") and therefore BN must caution the train at the Up Distant.

If you're *not* stopping at Bewdley then the signalmen have a special bell code to avoid doing anything which might confuse the passengers.

 

Thank you for identifying the idiot who has been causing surface damage to the brass bells on the GW ATC units. Perhaps you will now help to stop him causing such damage to other peoples property.

 

No damage has been caused by anyone to any engine I have driven. Find some other crusade.