Tornado

It does seem a hell of a lot of cash, especially when all parts were brand new - its not like a Barry Restoration.

The Trust website does identify what was done, quote below from http://a1steam.com/index.php?option...-back-in-steam&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=123

• Full internal inspection of boiler, replacement of tubes, renewal of foundation ring corners and stay replacement including increasing the number of flexible stays to enhance reliability - by DB Meiningen
• Re-setting of hornblock/axlebox clearance, requiring all coupled wheels out at once
• Thorough check for frame cracks using NDT and inspection of all bolted/riveted joints
• Splitting and inspection of roller bearing axle/cannonboxes and repairs as necessary
• Improvements to pipework and installation of air pumps to speed removal and refitting
• Clean out and repair tender tank
• Full re-paint in LNER apple green

 

I'd agree to a certain extent it does sound like an awful lot of money for a intermediate overhaul, but lets bear in mind that operating and maintaining any loco (old or new) is a very expensive business these days, which ever way you look at it.
True they've had to do a lot more work then initially anticipated, but sometimes these things just happen, and happen quite regularly in the affair of working on any steam engine. Let's face it, as much as we adore our steam engines, most of us here probably wouldn't be afraid to say that they make us pay for our love of them dearly... No matter the best intended of plans and beliefs of the loco's condition, more often then not, they'll have some nasty surprise waiting as there stripped down.

Ultimately I believe that this a good time as any to stop treating Tornado critically for it having issues occasionally, even though it's a new build. It would appear to me that people often seem to hold on to this bizarre assumption that because this engine is brand new, it should therefore work faultlessly 24/7 and never have even the slightest of issues during it's whole 10 year operation before overhaul. Tornado it's a great engine, make no mistake, but let's not persist in holding it to such high expectations that it should be some perfect machine with no flaws of the older engines.

As for the matter of the originals being most reliable and cheapest to run and maintain in the BR days, I would say that there are many factors that make that assumption much more complex a comparison then you'd assume, and therefore not all that fair. For example the cost might look cheaper compared to the Trust's, but if you take inflation into account now (what that price would actually in present time), I think you'll find there isn't that huge of differrence.

 

Something doesn't add up ?

 

Sorry, posted without updating but, I should think the greater proportion of the expenditure will be on the boiler alone ? it may have been different picture with a boiler of traditional construction ?

 

Transport costs to Germany and back would be 10's of thousands.

 

I am genuinely curious as to how the two methods of boiler construction/maintenance adds up when compared to each other. I suspect though, as with many other similar debates like this, one is not neccasarily unquestionably superior to the other. Both will have their pros and cons as with so many other subjects of whether one way is better to another. For example, it's often argued that steel fireboxes aren't as enduringly dependable as a copper one, yet copper is pretty expensive these days and steel fireboxes tend to be cheaper and quicker to repair.

 

Subjects like this are bound to persist as these new builds and their differing methods of construction progress in the coming years, in particular on subject of the boiler, as the Patriot is having it's boiler built the traditional way, so no doubt when that's up and running folks will be comparing the differing methods of the Patriot with Tornado's frequently.

 

I think the expense with this particular boiler is the fact that it is an ongoing R & D testbed, rather than investing in the tried and tested original, (which at the time of construction, the A1 trust were not convinced that there were any manufacturers 'able' to construct a traditional unit) which is not criticism in any way, fabricated steel was their chosen route, therefore every works visit incorporates these ongoing design changes to the boiler, no doubt, in time they will have reached a position where they will only be replacing the worn out sections, then, and only then will we get a true cost comparison between the two types.

 

Where did the £400k figure come from Sean?

 

From the latest news post on the A1ST website.

 

It's on the A1 website :http://a1steam.com/index.php?option...-back-in-steam&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=123

Keith

 

Thanks all.

 

Perhaps what im finding objectionable here is the Figure attached to 'overhaul'.
Perhaps as SACM suggests that there are things coming to light after 5 years that are costing money to put right- which is perfectly acceptable because its a new build ( though rather sobering for the other new builds out there) but if that's the case why not just say ?
These aren't overhaul costs, overhaul is just a convenient basket to sweep them into.
I Appreciate that to continue to attract and retain the kind of phenomenal support the A1SLT has and P2 is accruing a positive and competent image has to be maintained, but if this thing really is going to cost £ 400k every 5 years it takes the wind out of the sails of one of the bigger New build selling points

 

Does anyone know how to download their new app? (It's mentioned on their news page)

I can't find anything in Play Store..

 

In other news, it's in steam this weekend at NRM Shildon for trials and running in. We've just unloaded it.

 

I find it somewhat bemusing that you find it objectionable, as though insinuating that it really matters whether you approve of it or not, because I'm pretty sure that's not really how it works.

Am I suggesting that there's nothing wrong with the cost figure? No. Does this mean it's fundamentally flawed? No. As I commented before, steam engines in general (old and new) are temperamental machines. There expensive to run, and no matter how well you may have planned things out, once in a while their going to give you nasty/costly surprises.

Plus what exactly would you want them to say? That they screwed up and all those armchair sceptic of new builds were right all along? Talk like that isn't going to help anyone, certainly not those other new build projects, though if there were real issues, I'm sure they'd learn from them. This isn't some conspiracy, there not trying to hide anything here. If they were, would they really have revealed to us the cost of the intermediate overhaul?

On a final note, considering your apparent persisting objection to the cost of the work, I feel I should point out that this isn't another Flying Scotsman debacle. Not a penny of tax payers money is being wasted here, and the people who continue to give money to the Trust have yet to object or question the expenditure of Tornado's maintenance bill, so perhaps we should all just relax.

On plus side, great to see Tornado complete again, and back in it's lovely apple green , it's good to see that guise again. Here's hoping Blue Peter will still have that livery when it's back too, would love to see the two double heading together at some point.

 

I don't think I said anything...? Could you quote please. I am sure I would remember saying something like that.

 

Nobody has built a new A1 since 1949, and they were pretty much mass produced, and there was a huge industry supporting their maintenance and overhaul. Tornado is brand new, has a bunch of stuff (including key things like the boiler) re-designed - £400k doesn't start to look too bad when you have run a machine almost flawlessly for 5 years and are now improving on what is essentially a new design based on an existing design... Presumably each subsequent overhaul will become cheaper as more and more is learnt about these changes and A1's operating in preservation in general.

We should all bear in mind that operating in preservation is very different to BR days - Tornado isn't spending 14 days in steam, having a washout and then working another 14 days etc etc between overhauls. The heat up- cool down cycle of railtours has an obvious impact on components I would imagine...

 

I don't doubt their figures. It is a very expensive business running and maintaining any steam loco.
I admire the A1 steam trust's very open publicity policy about all the work they carry out, keeping not only their members up to date but the public with everything going on with 60163. It's very much warts and all dealing not only with their success but also when things go wrong with 60163. Quite a contrast to a certain place up North..............

 

I couldn't have said it better myself really, a well rounded and sensible view on this matter. It is all so true that the logistics, operation, maintenance, and expenses between BR of the 50s, and that of the A1ST of present day is worlds apart. Perhaps the biggest point to highlight really, is the fact the originals as you said were mass produced, which meant they could/would regularly replace virtually every part of the engine on a fairly regular basis. They'd be swapping around and replace parts wherever and whenever needed, meaning that none of the engines would get any particularly worn out parts, that is until the end of steam came along...

This general fact, I find, tends to be one of the biggest issues that all our steam engines old or new have. Their companies that operated these machines were vast, the available spare parts for them equally so. The common problem we always have now is all the parts on our steam engines wear out, and it's no easy or cheap task to replace them, if we even do. We don't have the luxury of having loads of spare parts for them, for most, all we have is already on them. Truth be told, if we sent some of the steam engines we have preserved now back in time to the works of their original companies, the workmen will most likely be shocked to find such old parts on them, and wonder why they weren't just replaced with a new one.

It's a reality we all have to face, it's just the question of how we dealing with as they steam further into the future.