Sir William A. Stanier, FRS

What I mean is Jim, if you put money into a National Collection loco as opposed to one you own, the NRM would probably still have a big say in where it goes and what it does.

 

If you were contemplating a new build Turbomotive, why not incorporate improvements in the same manner as the improved P2 (2007)? For example, I wonder if an infinitely variable transmission could be incorporated to ensure the turbine always operates efficiently? I know very little about IVTs other than they are made by Torotrak, a successful British company. I assume that they are reversible, and would therefore obviate the need for a second turbine.

It would be a fascinating project, much more so than than an additional Duchess but, as Simon suggests, the costs would be so prohibitive that it will certainly remain a daydream.

Dave

 

But there wasn't a 'National Collection' back in the sixties. All it was was an agreed list of locomotives that should not be cut up when the time came. There was no thought given to where they would be displayed; it was simply the responsibility of BR to keep them, which is what they largely did. Clapham was never going to be large enough to display them.
Interesting that a Caprotti BR Cl.5 was on the original list. I wonder why it was included and, then, why it was excluded?

 

Mallard was to be preserved - there was no question about that decision - and so you then had a Gresley Pacific in the National Collection. No duplication was desired - and as the A4 class was regarded in some circles as a "super A3", as it were, then that was the end of the matter.

 

Thank you Fred for your considered response. It's a shame but understandable. One wonders if in future we'd preserve examples of class 91, 78 and similar.

 

Potentially because 71000's cylinder and valve gear had been chosen for display instead - sectionalised?

Preserving 71000 as part of the national collection as the last (at the time) British built Pacific design would surely have been a good choice too.

On the subject of building another Duchess though, one person pointed out to me yesterday some benefits of sharing tooling products for the existing ones, but to me that seems a fanciful idea to try and justify further duplication.

 

I'm sure they thought that their original list of some 70 locomotives to be preserved was pretty optimistic, when you consider it was getting on for doubling in quantity what had survived to date, and probably more than doubling in space required. Anyone standing up and saying that in 50 years time hundreds of steam locomotives would be preserved, many of them running, it would have been considered ridiculous.

 

It was going to be, and it was then decided to keep one cylinder and scrap the rest.

 

Corrected the engine number.

 

I heard once that passengers on "The Scottish Lowlander" raised a sizeable sum of money on the day towards saving 6256, but that BR wouldn't put it on one side to enable the balance to be raised. Can anyone confirm this, or is it an urban myth?

As I said initially, I have mixed feelings about the prospect of a replica: haven't decided yet whether my heart (yes, go ahead and do it!) or my head (can't make an economic case for this one) will win the day. Incidentally, I am impressed with the civilised exchange of views this thread has started. I am involved with 82045, now happily well on its way back to the land of the living, but you only have to look at the 82045 thread on this website from our early days to see that this isn't always the case: we had one chap a few years ago who poured scorn on the project, and kept on doing so until eventually I assume his vitriol dried up. I'm all in favour of people having an opinion - it would be a boring world if we were all the same - but see no point in sheer nastiness.

Should this project go ahead, I suspect it would need a wealthy backer or two, as I imagine there would be very little change out of £4 million. As regards making economic sense, I dare say that our hobby as a whole isn't orientated 100% towards this. I think it's the love factor that keeps it buoyant!

 

As an LMS enthusiast I'm drawn to this project. Little of this hobby is about economic sense apart from when the realities of finance impinge on making dreams come true. I wouldn't consider a new Duchess to be a replica, rather a new build of the original design. Naming the loco after Stanier would be a fine tribute to the man (better I dare say than a bronze statue with or without a duck!) and of course (4)6256 could carry all of the postwar Duchess liveries) legitimately. Having seen the kind if power outputs the 2 preserved Duchesses have put up it would be fascinating to see what a new build with roller bearings could do. I wager it could show a clean pair of heals to an A1 or a P2!

 

Roller bearings alone would have a negligible impact on the maximum power output achievable. You would gain in terms of mileage between general overhauls and make the engine less susceptible to failures due to overheated bearings. If you were going to fund this exercise with the aim of producing a more powerful variant of the established design it could be done but it would be far from identical to the original. Worse, the adhesion issue would remain unaddressed. Not that this matters for preserved line use but if you are thinking of the mainline it is another matter. This hobby owes little to being rational. So if a group did want to set about recreating 46256 they are free to try to do so. And a fortunate forum member coming into a substantial sum of money is free to fund what they want to, the results of this could be more interesting than a group effort.

 

Build a new 46256? Nice idea, but really no point. If someone has that sort of cash to spend on a Duchess, then get together with the NRM and start planning to put 6229 through the works in time to take over as "flagship" from Flying Scotsman, ideally while Scotsman still has a year or two in service. I can imagine the "launch" railtour: 4472 York - Newcastle - Carlisle, then 6229 Carlisle - Settle - York. It would sell out, so repeat it the other way around the following day!

 

Er, yes, and...? So can 6229. However, unlike 6233, it could not legitimately carry any LMS's livery other than the lined black of 1946, a nice enough scheme in itself, but hardly comparable to crimson lake with gold lining.

As 242A1 says, roller bearings have nothing to do with power output. Yes, I've seen the literature issued by the bearing manufacturers, and dismissed it for the rubbish it is. As said, the advantage of roller bearings is increased mileage between shoppings, although this doesn't appear to have happened with 6256/57: most other class members did as well, and several very much better. 6257 in particular spent an enormous amount of time on Crewe works.

It's difficult to see what this new build, if completed, could do which the existing class members have not already achived since preservation.

 

Tongue firmly in cheek but a new build 46256 has just been out shopped...
http://www.lupts.org.uk/bmw-home.htm
At the top of the page is a Gauge 1 commission from my brother who might just be persuaded to make another and sell with some magnifying spectacles, with rose tints. Problem solved..

 

If someone wants to stump up about £2,000,000 and build a replica of 46256, then good on them and I'm sure it would find work on the main line. I do agree with you, however, that any new-build project of a class where an existing class member exists and is seeking support from enthusiasts will probably only get significant support if the original loco is going to be stuffed and mounted for the foreseeable future. Another V2 would be popular if the NRM says "no way, never" to Green Arrow and one which would get me digging into my pockets would be a replica Gladstone 0-4-2. I gather that the boiler on No. 214 is pretty bad and the last survivor, B172 Littlehampton, was quite a celebrity. It lasted long enough to be photographed alongside brand new 6PUL/6PAN electric stock at Brighton in 1933. A replica would be a lovely sight alongside 32424 and as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't care whether it was painted in Southern Olive Green, LBSCR Marsh Umber or Stroudley's Improved Engine Green. (Sorry, a bit off topic!)

 

And if built, I wonder how long it would be before the inevitable calls to "paint it black"

Tom

 

I think there will be some disquiet on this forum if 6229 appears in BR livery! And whilst I'm not suggesting roller bearings alone will make for a more powerful loco I am saying a new build will allow the loco to perform as it was designed in a way an almost 80 year old 1,000,000 miles+ example never will no matter how lovingly maintained.

 

I personally never considered the last 2 to be a true Duchess ( and I have always loved the Princess Coronations) they appeared too 'angular'. up to date they may have been but at cost to their appearance. Replica, no thanks.

 

Well, you'd need to take the bath tub off first! And that would raise a few eyebrows in itself!

1,000,000 plus miles? Just nicely run in! These machines are like musical instruments and fine Scotch whiskey. They get better with age.