FR & WHR & WHHR News

The FR was (from the point continuous brakes were introduced) always Vacuum. The NWNGR was always air braked. Russell was fitted with Vacuum brakes in July 1924, at which point the air brakes were removed, following the completion of the full WHR route, and the linking of the two systems, and then cut down over the following winter. The Vacuum system was either removed or isolated when the loco moved to Hook Norton in 1942. The only time the loco has been dual braked was between 1988 and 2003.

John

 

"Snowdown" - would that be a different mountain in North Wales?
Ray.

 

..........and so if the WHHR were to have rights to run over the WHR how would the compensation for that work........is there any discussion between the two railways with this in mind ? ......

 

I'm a steam fan first and foremost, so I'm not advocating abondoning them at all. But alternatives exist.
Maybe I'm not good at articulating (this could well be the root of my dislike of Garratts ). Let me state my position...

I live in Norfolk, there is hardly any Narrow Gauge around here, yes there is some, but nothing close to the scale of the FR, WHR, or even the Talylynn. In railway preservation I believe 3 railways being linked together (WHHR, WHR, FR) is almost unique. So to see the opportunity not being taken to mix things up a bit because of petty squabbles is saddening. The FR/WHR is an amazing world class facility, that is the envy of many other railways, they aren't fighting to survive like others are. Make hay while the sun shines.

The Garratts are fine I suppose, but they could have restored 1 NG16, and used the money for the other 2 to build/restore different locomotive types. Mountaineer & Bedgellert spring to mind. A fleet of new double fairlies would've been preferable imho.

If the argument can be made that Mallard doesn't need to steam again because there is already another working example, then the argument could be made that 3 NG 16's weren't neccessary to preserve either.
There are too many nay sayers in the steam community. But of course Tornado will never get a boiler built for it, it just can't be done, its a silly idea. Look how that turned out. When the FR first opened it was ridiculed as a silly idea too, but a success was made of it.

I'm not taking away from the Garratts, they have been restored to a very high degree, and I doff my cap to those involved. But for me, personally, I prefer the plucky smaller locomotives. How long is it until the England loco's are disregarded completely because they aren't big enough? What happens then? Will they end up rusting away like Welsh Pony did?

 

Ahem, that would be a typo.

 

Unfortunately I think these ideas fly in the face of reality. At least one railway that I know of that needs several crews a day at peak times is struggling to find them., but leaving that aside, if we accept the need for big engines and long trains to handle to volume of passengers on offer, then I cannot see anything in the UK 2ft world that would be suitable. I don't have figures to back my case, but I'm sure that building something that might do the job would have cost a lot more than buying and overhauling the Garratts/NG15s, so this was a logical path to follow, and gives those of us not fortunate to have visited S. Africa to see them working hard. The smaller engines that you enthuse about are mostly in regular use on the FR and see occasional use on the WHR. What's not to like about that? As for your last point, I can only say that the FR appears to me to have one of the best records going for looking after its heritage stock in recent times - look at all those restored slate wagons, Palmerston, Spooners boat and now the restoration of Welsh Pony to name but a few - do you think it is being rebuilt to then be cast aside and left to rust? It has taken a while to get round to it, but they've got there in the end, even though it is unlikely to be a mainstay of FR services. To my mind that is an impressive measure of a mature set up.

 

Very much agree here. The WHR as a complete railway is still very much in it's infancy and I'm sure there is much more to come. The small loco - short train idea (with more frequent service) has been debated before here and elsewhere, but always comes back to the lack of resources - carriages, signalling, crews and available locos with sufficient grunt and range for the task. And also what happens when too many people turn up for one of the shorter trains - demand isn't equal throughout the day. Most passengers avoid the heritage stock (and the more modern FR stock on the end of the train) - they vote with their feet. Personally if there wasn't space in the open carriage I'd go for the heritage stock - but only because it's less crowded! The NGG16s are ideal for the services that are being offered today - I look forward to the NG15 entering service by way of variety. The interchangeability of parts between the NGG16s has already proved its worth in helping maintain the service. Keep the heritage locos and stock for special events and services and make the best use of the modern stock with the big locos to provide the service that most people expect these days. And it provides something you can't see elsewhere on the British narrow gauge.

Steve B

 

Sorry, but I very much doubt that any of those suggestions would have been viable options for the modern WHR. Even the FfR Fairlies are usually run double-headed when they appear on the WHR.

In any case, I would offer my own view that, although I am not completely opposed to new-build schemes (because they sometimes have an educational value), I nevertheless consider that we are a railway preservation movement, and where possible, I would prefer to see us making the best use of genuine, historic engines that survive, before we resort to building new.

There are quite a number of NGG16s surviving, and it is hard to think of anywhere else in the world that could be making use of the WHR's fleet right now. I'll be honest with you, actually I don't find them the most exciting engines either; but they are nevertheless a very important part of Britain's railway heritage, and I think it is great that the WHR has given us a place where we have the opportunity of seeing them running in this country. I am also very much looking forward to seeing an NG15 running in due course.

 

While I am aware of the fact that NG15 134 is a volunteers' project and thus its rebuild is going slowly (aiming I believe for 2018!?), I still find it odd that the WHR has not put money and/or personpower into speeding this up. At the moment there are only 3 NGG16s operational, which is borderline secure for maintaining steam services. Now that 130 is being fast-tracked, maybe this will be relieved soon, though I hear it may only replace one of the others going into overhaul. (I understand one isn't to mention the Pete Waterman loco....)
Anyone else think that fast tracking 134 would be a good idea?

 

I've said before that I think it would be good if the WHR could one day be a showcase for some of the larger British-built 2ft gauge locos from around the world- one of the Gwailor Railway pacifics, for example (I believe there may be one in Collection X) or a Burma Mines Rly 2-6-2 or 2-6-2T would be interesting, and iirc there were some rather nice 4-6-2Ts in S. Africa - do any of these survive?

 

Looking at the loco/engineering resource that the WHR has, it would appear that they have all bases covered when it comes to the present fleet of NGG16s; sure, it would be "nice" (apologies PH) to have a fourth, but then we get into the cost/availability ratios for what, at present, is a 2 train railway, that's where the margins probably don't stack up for more locos. I would agree, from an enthusiasts point of view, a mix of locos would be very desirable (whoops!! nearly said "nice" again!!), but, as we have seen since the inception of the present WHR structure, this has been a very considered and coordinated plan that has worked with remarkable success, one "lucky" element being the availability of the wonderful locos from South Africa.

As for NG15 No.134, I personally can't wait to see a large, "straight" loco working on the WHR, but, I can see that all available WHR resources are channeled into the NGG16 fleet for the foreseeable future, so it looks as though the volunteer group responsible for 134 will be finishing the loco as and when.

The other loco that must be considered in any discussion concerning the WHR is the planned large diesel loco., I don't know, if any progress has been made with this machine, but it's eventual arrival isn't a "wouldn't it be nice to have" option but a real necessity for the smooth operation of the railway, one thing I do know - it won't be cheap.

We are unbelievably lucky to have this magnificent railway and it's equally impressive loco fleet to visit and travel on, such that as for Taliesin and Tornado I really have to pinch myself to accept that they really exist!!. When it comes to railways and preservation, we really do live in extraordinary times today, long may it continue.

Cheers,

Alan

 

Actually, at the moment there are only 2 NGG16s available, the other is being overhauled. It says a lot for the F&WHRs maintenance regime that the two locos have maintained the two train service with very little diesel substitution.

Steve B

 

Oh yes indeed, I would dearly like to see a Gwalior Pacific in action, incredibly, Collection X has two of these Bagnall locos! I may be wrong, but I believe that one was originally bound for the Brecon Mountain Railway but ended up in Surrey, perhaps it wasn't American enough. As for a South African 4-6-2T, one at least survives on the Sandstone Railway, NG4 and this loco has been restored to full working order.

Cheers

Alan

 

Further to my last post, found this short clip of the NG4 working at Sandstone Estates. Looks like a superb restoration job.



Cheers,

Alan

 

That is indeed a very interesting question...and you are quite right that such a loco is undoubtedly neccessary for the WHR in the long term. However, as a short-term expedient, I wonder whether it might be possible to equip the two Funkey diesels for multiple working? This would give the WHR a very powerful diesel unit which could be worked with only one crew...just a thought!

As for the NG4...beautiful machines, yes, but sadly NG16 at Sandstone is the only survivor of her class, so I very much doubt she would ever be allowed to leave South Africa.

 

Shame about No. 16 being the only survivor of its class. As a matter of interest, what unpreserved large 2ft gauge steam locos remain in Africa and Asia now?

 

Are they fast enough to keep time? I thought these had a limited top speed, I am prepared to be wrong though.

 

QUOTE="Guitar, post: 1236712, member: 18966"]

I'm not taking away from the Garratts, they have been restored to a very high degree, and I doff my cap to those involved. But for me, personally, I prefer the plucky smaller locomotives. How long is it until the England loco's are disregarded completely because they aren't big enough? What happens then? Will they end up rusting away like Welsh Pony did?[/QUOTE]

I think if you look at what the FR has been doing for it's heritage over the past few decades you would see how unlikely the prospect of the England engines being left to rust is. All sorts of things have been achieved from replica mileposts, and restoring traditional fencing though to authentic vintage carriage sets and original signals. Plus there is the ever growing waggon fleet soon to be kept undercover in shed capable of storing 200 heritage waggons. Even on the utilitarian WHR there are things like the station a Tryfan Junction rebuilt from a pile of rubble. The list goes on and on, but none of this is essential to running the railway and can only happen because there are things like NGG16s and corridor coaches that bring in the money to keep the railway open.

Just to give you an idea as to why small engines aren't double headed up the WHR or they don't run lots of short trains instead of a few big ones. The current midweek timetable requires 4 drivers and 4 firemen on the FR, plus 4 more drivers and 4 more fireman on the WHR, plus a standby diesel driver at Boston Lodge and Dinas. That's 18 people, it's a full 20 on a Thursday when the Jazz train runs. So that's 20 people you need give up their time and money, to travel to North Wales and volunteer just for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. Now imagine you want to double head both sets on the WHR. You'll need 28 people to just provide motive power for the day on 7 steam locos plus 2 standby diesels. How many railways could manage that?

Tim

 

I think if you look at what the FR has been doing for it's heritage over the past few decades you would see how unlikely the prospect of the England engines being left to rust is. All sorts of things have been achieved from replica mileposts, and restoring traditional fencing though to authentic vintage carriage sets and original signals. Plus there is the ever growing waggon fleet soon to be kept undercover in shed capable of storing 200 heritage waggons. Even on the utilitarian WHR there are things like the station a Tryfan Junction rebuilt from a pile of rubble. The list goes on and on, but none of this is essential to running the railway and can only happen because there are things like NGG16s and corridor coaches that bring in the money to keep the railway open.

Just to give you an idea as to why small engines aren't double headed up the WHR or they don't run lots of short trains instead of a few big ones. The current midweek timetable requires 4 drivers and 4 firemen on the FR, plus 4 more drivers and 4 more fireman on the WHR, plus a standby diesel driver at Boston Lodge and Dinas. That's 18 people, it's a full 20 on a Thursday when the Jazz train runs. So that's 20 people you need give up their time and money, to travel to North Wales and volunteer just for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. Now imagine you want to double head both sets on the WHR. You'll need 28 people to just provide motive power for the day on 7 steam locos plus 2 standby diesels. How many railways could manage that?

Tim[/QUOTE]



......so why not use drivers and trains from the WHHR.....? .........what harm would that do....?