VT - 4965: The Welsh Marches 29th August

You know it's a lot easier having it delivered to your door ! Sometimes you get it 3 or 4 day's before shop release !

 

A wonderful and masterful performance from Ray with 4965. with the added bonus of having him driving both ways. a wonderful day with lovely warm sunny weather and a great performance from the master himself Ray Churchill.

 

Great video! I must have been next to you on the footbridge at Kiddy for a bit, went to see what was happening on the SVR before going down the road to get some photos of 4965 running over the viaduct.


Wellington Station on the way home in the evening:


And a short video from Wellington:

 

Some points from Saturday. First the train appeared to be timed for 75 mph running, rather than the 60 mph limit of the Hall, eg Ashchurch to Cheltenham booked average 72.7 mph. That's one of the reasons we lost time in the morning. On the North and West route its more about hill climbing and there are few chances to run for long spells at 75 mph anyway, so we kept or gained time there. Secondly the no window hanging rule was strictly enforced by the vigilant stewards as was the nothing to be fixed to the outside of the train rule, even to the extent of not allowing my tiny aerial for the GPS to be fixed outside the toplight. I would expect nothing less from the top class operator that Vintage is.

Lastly my dear brother there is unfortunately no chance of Vintage doing a fast Waterloo to anywhere as they use their own stock and nearly always their own engines and normally operate out of Tyseley. This is one of their great strengths. Maybe Ben could comment on this?
Don

 

Whilst I agree with you in the main Don I do think it was very draconian not to allow anyone in the vestibules at all. A number of 'gricers' were very disgruntled and said they'd never travel with them again having been trapped in their seats all day. And I'm pretty sure that is NOT an ORR requirement as VT quoted. It rather spoiled my day as I wasn't on the milepost side for the North and West. I tried spotting the posts from the centre doorway but the high cupboard made it seriously difficult. It's never easy north of Caerleon anyway due to the vegetation growth this time of year. Spoiled what was a brilliant day behind 4965.

 

The vestibule enforcement is way OTT ! Hopefully the current enforcing of these safety measures will ease off by next year. I like to think were pretty loyal to VT, when booking tours, as we hardly travel with any other tour company, but at the moment, the enjoyment of traveling & enjoying my hobbie is being degraded by the current vigorous set of rules. For the meantime I'm happy to cooperate with these new measures, until the spotlight on West Coast is dimmed.

 

If you have a GPS that works from where ever you can get to in the train without compromising the regime that VT need to follow there is what was called the "Veltom method" when it was first trialled. Take normal times from the start using the continuous electronic recording system. ie. to the nearest 1/10 of a second or even 1/100th from start to finish of the run. As speed builds start writing down the GPS exact speed every 15 seconds. Plus those for known timing points like stations and junctions. Add in bridges as you can get the exact mileage from RPS if you are a member.

Put all the data on a spreadsheet later and you will find you can produce an accurate log with whole MP times added in easily to the nearest second.

A lot of work, but it depends how badly you want to time a run. I've used it a few times in Germany and the UK when on the wrong side of the train from mileposts and/or after dark. I very, very rarely ever let anything get in the way of me timing a run I really wanted to time.

Even if you are sitting at a gangway seat it would be unusual for those in window seats to not allow you to place your GPS up against the window where it is still readable. Or if you have an aerial for you to place that on the inside of the window.

As I said, hard work, but if it means you end up with an accurate log of a run you wanted to time then so be it.

Thinking back. I don't think I can think of a single instance of not being able to time a steam run regardless of all sorts of obstacles I have encountered over the years.

PS. Once had a fast run at night behind 18 201 into Munich up from Austria somewhere. Well into the 80s, (mph) for quite a long spell as we got into the area served by the Munich local services on parallel tracks. Lost all GPS coverage for most of the fast section. So I took continuous times from the local service stations and electrification masts. The next day I went out on the local service and noted down the exact metre distances shown on a plate on the electrification masts: small three digit numbers under the main very large km plates which just showed inaccurate km distances to 1/10th of a km.

Got an accurate log from that. Because I really wanted one!

 

Yes lots of good advice there and as I too was wrong side for mileposts on the N&W I sort of used this method without going into so much detail. I took the exact GPS distance at Maindee N Jct and then using the RPS distance chart in front of me, worked out where the timing points and key mileposts should be, confirming the first important MP from actual (cautious and undetected!) observation from a vestibule window. As many of the MPs on this route cant be seen anyway this worked fine for me. From Hereford it was easier still as the RPS chart starts from zero and I just had to allow for being at the back of the train. I am getting to the stage when I don't want to stand up for hours anyway.My GPS will work well without an aerial but recovers better from tunnels with it. It has a magnet on the end but the problem could be solved using blue tack.

I agree its a bit of a pain at the moment but hopefully things will get a bit more relaxed as time goes by.

Don

 

It is always a great pity that outpourings of adulation such as this one, and indeed others on this thread, never seem to ascribe any credit to the masters of the shovel who do a brilliant job providing the steam, without which such performances would not be possible. For the record they were Alastair Meanley Tyseley to Hereford, and Dean Morris Hereford to Tyseley. Performances such as these with a Hall and 9 on are at the top of the game, and incidentally demanded by the timings!

Regards
Bob

 

Yes, I know what you say makes absolute sense, and to go down this route would obviously quell some of the impatience of having to wait to view latest news and in particular, feature articles. And it might also confer some financial benefit if the publisher is running subscription offers.

But the other side to this is the desire to support local retailers and retail outlets in the belief - possibly naive, but sincerely held - that somehow this will encourage them to maintain a decent profile for railway periodicals on their shelves, and that somehow this will in turn be beneficial to all in the core and on the fringes of the enthusiast community as a result. This same belief will usually persuade me to make the effort to seek out a decent bookshop, or a decent CD/ DVD retailer (the latter increasingly difficult, I'm afraid), rather than just submit to the lure of the Amazon kind of delivered-to-your-door solution.

All of which explains why I find it so disappointing to learn of WH Smug's attitude to stocking (or no longer stocking) HR. Perhaps I should be thinking about moving with the times. But then I will never grow up to be an elderly curmudgeon!!

 

Seems VT are worse than any other tour operator in regards the window/vestibule issue.
How can you expect "enthusiasts" to be strapped to their seats (chain & shackle?) all day long.
If that's the way they want it, then boycott the catering vehicles. Not allowed in the vestibules, then not allowed to leave your seat to use said vehicles.
What if you want the toilet (assuming they are not locked & barred as mentioned previously)? Sit there & cross your legs? Wait for "sir" to turn up & put your hand up & plead with him?
Don't know about others, but I cannot sit in one place for hours on end. I suffer badly from cramp if I do.
Seeing various comments, it looks like more of a VT issue rather than a ORR ruling.
Finally, if I lived in their "catchment" area & previously travelled with them, there is no way I would do so again if this issue persists.
This is more than "window hanging", you are not even allowed to leave your seat let alone enter the "hallowed" vestibule.
You have more freedom on service trains, especially HST's with slam doors & vestibules.
If anyone from VT wishes to comment on this, feel free. In my eyes, no comment means some feeling of guilt.

 

Cool down buseng. I think that comment is way over the top.

Why should a small number of those who want to stand by an open window prejudice the enjoyment of a day out behind steam for the other several hundred people who behave in a more traditional fashion when on a train. Especially at a very sensitive time for main line steam operations.

Incidentally do you live in their catchment area, and have you travelled with them much in the past?

 

4965 at Cosford

 

Agreed,although having said that I am sure we have debated this "no vestibule" thing before and I seem to remember it was said there was a real requirement for people to remain sitting for the first few miles departing Tyseley? Why it should apply anywhere else is a mystery,and I would not consider booking with them (if I lived anywhere near their catchment area,which I don't) for that reason. There have also been reports of VT stewards being heavy-handed and bordering on the aggressive which would also put me right off. But at least anyone who reads this forum knows exactly where they stand (or should that be sit!?)

 

4965 between Worcester and Norton jct[ power wires removed ]

 

I had to resort to a combination of both. Got a few discrepancies on my Garmin beastie north of Hereford compared to the distances from Hereford in Quail's RTD. At least the last few quarters approaching Pontypool Road and on Llanvihangel Bank were easily visible.

 

Bob

At Hereford I went up to the engine and although I recognised Ray Churchill, I didn't know the fireman so I asked who he was and of course it was Alastair that I was talking to.. Having been on the footplate quite a few time in the 1960s I never forget who provides the steam

Don

 

We did not have to remain in our seats all day. There was a constant procession to the buffet and toilets. I actually didn't know about the no standing in the vestibule rule (except for the Tyseley to Small Heath Jct section). The wording actually refers to blocking gangways and vestibules with camera stands and cases etc.

Could Ben comment please?

Don

 

Re. W H Smug, I was told a completely different story, I noticed that my local branch (Farnham) had stopped stocking Today's Railways and asked why. They said that back in December their supplier had deleted their magazine records and that they had had to reinstate all the magazines and some had been missed. They told me that Today's Railways would be available in the future now I had asked for it. They always have plenty of HR's by the way.

So maybe it's cock-up rather than conspiracy!