6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

Did the Western Region have any 84xxx tanks? (Not really my field).

Some of the 75xxx class went green as well, so I am sure they would have painted the 80xxx tanks the same had the timing been right. Still think 80135 looks odd though - in fact, I think most standards look odd in green, even those for which it is legitimate.

Tom

 

Unfortunately, no 84XXXs were greened. Now, that is a thought for the livery of 41241, 41313 or 84030.

 

Just about, Tom. Three 84xxxs arrived at Oswestry in 1963, before the boundary changes.

 

OK, a narrow gauge example for you. The Llanberis Lake Railway, which as I understand it is essentially a commercial concern, have (or at least had, I haven't been there for some years now) three basically identical quarry Hunslets which they painted in red, yellow and (I think) blue, while 'Una' in the adjacant Welsh Slate museum was green. Without doing this, the casual observer may well have thought that they had only the one engine, and may well have opted to go somewhere with more engines. So there's a commercial justification for you.

Standard gauge, how many Austerity 0-6-0STs have been turned out in pseudo-BR livery? Quite a few, and usually because the owners or host railway wanted to project a BR image rather than an industrial one. It makes commercial sense for the owners (as otherwise their locos might not find use, at least on the railway they choose to base their engines on) and it makes commercial sense for the railway too if they are trying to recreate a particular era. Of course we all know that an Austerity tank on Mk.1 coaches is a pretty inaccurate representation of the past anyway, so the livery is arguably just another inaccurate detail.

Incidentally I have tried more than once to convince one 'Austerity' owner to paint his loco in authentic WD livery and he is not interested, insisting it must be BR black. His engine, but I think it's a missed opportunity myself.

 

Exactly...just happy to have steam back on the main line. When the routes and events were restricted, every one of them was an absolute joy IMO.

 

Gosh! That brings back some happy memories! I'd forgotten she had 'Edge Hill' painted on the buffer beam even though wearing a Carnforth shed plate! That was the work of one of her caretakers, Robert 'Dixie' Dean, a cheeky scouser who had been a fireman at 8A in steam days. He adored that loco (even though it had never been shedded there) and together with a mate of his from the Leeds area (whose name escapes me for the moment) looked after her for many many years.

Thanks for sharing it Alan.

 

Same as when Lord Nelson returned to the main line. God awful shade of green that was supposed to be Southern livery but nobody seemed to care as getting Nellie back running was a joy in itself.

 

It was quite early on in the "return to steam" era and we had lots of locos in pre-1948 liveries working blue and grey sets as well as the Met-Cam Pullmans so most main line specials were a real "mix and match" but they sold out and we all had great fun no matter what colour the loco and stock were painted. There was no shortage of people on the line side photographing them either so back ten livery didn't seem to be the issue it is today - at lead for some. IIRC the GWR vintage train was about the only main line working where the loco/stock combination could have been said to be "authentic."

 

Straight question - were you around back then? Carnforth was a steam Mecca in those days with the chance to see both main line and industrial locos in action on the demo lines. The fact that they were working locos took precedence over the colour for many if not most visitors.

 

I have been thinking about this since I saw the picture of Leander in her previous scheme. BR Black does not suit her and it is just disgusting.

It is from an enthusiast view point for what it is worth.

 

Very fair points. I guess I'm moving as I get older into the more "purist" end of heritage railways.

All of the examples you mentioned are locomotives with potentially stunning historical liveries that I'd personally pay to see.

And I dislike the use of BR liveries on locomotives which never carried it.

On the IoW - who I normally praise for their depiction of accuracy - they now have an E1 and its to be painted in a BR livery.

Now - I know that's a compromise because it'll fit in with the stock better and it'll be accurate for its classmates.

It however never carried the livery because it went into industrial use before BR.

It's the example I struggle with because I agree with the railways intentions in terms of a consistent message and yet it sits with me uncomfortably because the locomotive has its own interesting, unique history.

The livery is one of the first things people will see, which is why it's important to get it right, for commercial reasons yes, but for historical ones too.

I just feel owners need to be more careful of the way they are perceived.

You can forgive the IoW because they've made their reasoning clear with the E1. That's commercial and historical reasons which are also legitimate and reasonable.

Is it so easy to look at Galatea and say the same?

I apologise if it sounds like I'm picking on poor Galatea but she's the best example at this time for me of something inherently wrong with the heritage sector.

The worst misdemeanour is still the BR MK1 veranda coach...!

 

Galatea is not owned by a museum or by a charitable body, but by a man who runs a commercial TOC. He paints his diesels in a house livery - would it be acceptable if Galatea had a WCRC logo on the tender? Or indeed had its actual TOPS number on its smokebox and cab?

 

And what is so wrong with that? On a nice day I can see that be very popular with the paying public, especially dining party bookings. Railways are competing in an increasingly competitive market place for the leisure pound and innovative ideas that can widen the appeal and attract those whose first choice for an evening out wouldn't necessarily a steam train guide should be welcomed.

 

I think the WCRC loco stud are held by a charitable trust.

 

Aren't they owned by CRRES Ltd, which WC hires them from? Was some mention in the RAIB Winchcombe report about the various structures and holdings by way of background to the maintenance arrangements.

 

Can't believe I'm having to justify my viewpoint that cutting off the back end of a perfectly useable, historic, BR Mk1 is not okay, to be honest!

 

Personal opinion??? it wouldn't matter to me one bit. Picture the scene, going up the hill from Settle, easing over Ribblehead and then opening up again, they can put any paint and logos on that they choose. And for me, that applies to any loco, we'd all be lost without steam on the main line and here we have 14 pages of folk agonising over colours and shades.

 

A bit like what ET did to 4470 then.

 

Quite right, Im not sure this vehicle is for public use, I think it's part of the ego trip for he with the fat wallet.

 

It's still perfectly useable for heaven's sake. So what about vehicles that have been adapted for the disabled, should they be returned to original condition? I think you need a reality check young man.