6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

As an example of how some Jubilees appeared in the late 40s yes it is but not for this particular engine. In other words a damn sight more correct than a BR red one.

 

Genuine question. Those Jubs that had BRITISH RAILWAYS in full, would that not have been applied to post war LMS black as opposed to lined BR black?

 

An interesting point! I've had a look in 'Historical Locomotive Monographs - LMS Jubilees by R.J. Essery and G. Toms (1994) Wild Swan ISBN 1 874103 17 8. They give two BR Black liveries, one with BRITISH RAILWAYS (Code B8) and one with the crest (B9). B8 was applied to 5685 only, although the list is far from complete. There are about half a dozen with B9, though.

 

I've got that book to and I think both B8 and B9 had BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender the difference being B8 was unlined, black with the totem was B10. There are several pictures in the book of locos in B8, 45582/45584/45692.

45690 received B9 at a heavy general in April 1949, I have seen a picture of it, probably in one of my books but I can't locate it.

So in answer to Ian's question, Jubilees appeared with BR lettering both in 1946 lined black and the LNWR style lining as eventually applied to mixed traffic locomotives.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Sorry, John, you're right: I should have said B9 and B10 rather than B8 and B9. B8 is indeed unlined. I must have dropped a line when reading across.

So going through again, 5Xs with the LNWr-style lining and full lettering are: 5554, 5569, 5572, 5574, 5594, 5597, 5612, 5658, 5663, 5678, 5690, 5695, 5700, 5709, 5719, 5735 (rebuild). So fifteen in all.

 

I remember seeing a photo some time ago of a Jubilee in LNER style apple green, around 1948 or 49 with black and white lining. Anyone know which one this was?

 

Thought that was a rebuilt Patriot.

 

There were three 45565/45604/45694 along with a Black 5 and a rebuilt Patriot (there may have been others) and they looked awful. The colour was similar to LNER Apple Green with red/grey/black lining with pale straw insignia. Strange how some colours suit certain locomotives, nothing looks better than an LNER Pacific or 4-6-0 in Apple Green but IMO it just didn't suit ex LMS engines.

 

Three black 5s were done green, one in the LNER style, one Southern Malachite, one GWR to test experimental liveries, I think it was at Kensington Addison Road in 1948.

 

When I was small I was told that everything on the railways was dirty in wartime so that it couldn't be spotted from the air. I believed it for a time.

 

Gateshead and New England carried on that tradition into peacetime.

 

For those wondering just how awful they might (or might not) have looked (and proving that it takes all sorts), here are some pictures of a particularly good 5" gauge model of the not-Black 5 that was up for sale about ten years ago.

No connection with supplier, etc. Post edited for added vagueness

 

All of this discussion of the multiplicity of liveries carried by LMS Stanier 4-6-0s in the late 1940s just makes me think that developing a new variation now is hardly the crime some on here think it is.

 

Nowt awful about that at all. Looks good to me.

 

You aren't allowed to have your own subjective opinion about it! It has been pronounced awful by those who rule on such matters.
Although as it is 100% authentic, they presumably can't complain...

 

Is the totem authentic for that livery on the Black Five? I would have thought it'd have had the lettering, no? Happy to be proved wrong, but I was only aware of one of the D16s getting such a livery (for Royal Train status).

 

I wasn't going to post on this thread, but seeing the P2 cab (on the other thread) made me wonder what the trust will do when the time eventually comes.

I have no doubt it will appear in Apple Green and will look absolutely fantastic. But personally I would have no issue with it appearing in any legitimate livery that an LNER express loco might have carried, including BR ones. The fly in the ointment is that it would have to carry a fictitious BR number. Anathema to some, I have no doubt, but would it be so bad as an exercise in what might have been? After all, variety is the spice etc.

Remember that the loco will have no history as such, so to the ultimate purist there can be no truly authentic livery. Anyway, plenty of time to decide....

Dave

PS edited to say Happy Christmas everybody

 

The P2s would have potentially carried 990-996 (and in fact did as A2/2s in some cases, albeit temporarily). 60997 would take into account those temporary numbers and if the originals had not been rebuilt as Pacifics and put into the Thompson Pacific numbering scheme of 501-524.

 

Thanks, I didn't know that. So that's sorted, 60997 it is then . I can't wait.

Dave