48624

That's a laugh. If accepting the opinion of others is such a virtue, how come you don't accept the opinion of those who think it's ok to paint things in a colour of which you disapprove? Physician heal thyself.

 

And you haven't answered the question at what point does history become set in stone?

 

I would happily concede a point if it was well made and I knew what that point was!

I think you protest a little too much, given it was your "rubbish" comment that led to this side play in the debate!

 

All of which are perfectly reasonable explanations and compromises that I am sure I am not alone in saying we'd happily agree with are necessary for the sake of keeping history alive.

None of which answers the question as to why a goods engine has to be painted in an express engine's livery or why an express engine has to be painted in a livery that never existed in the first place for that class.

Moving the goalposts again I am afraid, Mr Spamcan.

 

I did, with this........which I turned into a further question. 'History is set in stone when the object is to preserve it. If that isn't the object, then anything goes. So, that is the crux of the matter. What is the purpose of preservation and recreating history? Is it important or, will any personal interpretation of history do just as well?
You seem to belong to the anything goes camp.

 

46441 was painted in BR lined black for a while, whilst it was at the ELR.
75027 received BR green livery in May 1959.
75029 received BR green livery in May 1957.

 

Set in stone is an objective fact? Good grief. It is a subjective opinion. Perfectly valid, but far from the only opinion out there. A locomotive's history does not end when it is preserved, any more than it starts then.

 

Agreeing with and accepting an opinion aren't the same thing. I accept you have yours and it varies with mine, but I don't belittle yours. Argue against it, yes, but not belittle it.

 

Set in stone is an objective fact? Good grief. It is a subjective opinion. Perfectly valid, but far from the only opinion out there. A locomotive's history does not end when it is preserved, any more than it starts then.

I already covered that as well, with a question, which probably needs a poll to answer. Is preservation only about recreating the working past, the thing it was built to do, before preservation.

 

It's an interesting topic for debate.

4472 is probably the best known example of "making history" after being preserved.

Last non stop run London-Edinburgh behind steam - many changes occurred to make that happen including a second corridor tender for water only.

Went to Australia and did the longest non stop for a steam locomotive - period - but she had an A3 boiler and single chimney. Both authentic for LNER no.103, but not 4472.

I'm sure many people would want her restored as 4472 and not 103 - but is that history making part of her history then something we would wish to recreate?

When put like that, I think a fair point is made. However I would counter that with saying 4472 is the exception - as that number she's the best known locomotive in the world. So that has to be taken into account for any future overhaul perhaps.

I don't accept that's the case with Galatea or the 8F though - both of which were overhauled over a long time and haven't changed sufficiently, as 4472 has done, from their original design whereby we have to question what livery is appropriate.

Perhaps as the list is indicating above, "case by case" and whether or not a reasonable case against history can be made.

 

I thought this thread was about an 8F!

 

Who the hell gives a fudge?.......

You own it, you do with it as you damn well please - history didn't stop in August '68 for steam - if I had ownership of Scotsman, I'd paint the damn thing in "Mr Blobby" livery - what say you then?..... all this frothing over a lick of paint is nowt but hot air - Joe Public couldn't give a damn as long as there's a 'kettle' on the front & that's what matters!

So, having read page after page of going round the houses guff, can we please get back to the subject of this thread - which BTW I quite liked in maroon - went well with the GCR's green set & made a refreshing change!

 

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I don't think anyone has suggested that historical accuracy is wrong or that they are opposed to it. It's just that some don't share your opinion of its importance. There are lots of reasons for painting locos in liveries that are not quite authentic or utterly inauthentic. Not all the reasons are good ones but there must always have been a reason, even if only convenience or personal whim. I can hardly believe that anyone has chosen an inauthentic livery purely for the sake of inauthenticity, with no other reason.

 

If it helps I could mention the GCR's "windcutter" set. There are 36 wagons in the set and most are painted grey, which is inaccurate for all but about 10 of them because most were either built vacuum fitted or converted in the '70s. Most were also rebodied in the '70s (including one of the 10) and even the remainder have been through piped in preservation, apart from 2 which have never run. 2 of the others aren't even 16t mineral wagons but higher capacity industrial lookalikes. Loads of them have fictitious numbers on too although that is gradually being put right when possible. In their present condition everything is wrong about pretty much all of them, and quite frankly the engine might as well be painted red as it trundles past geographically incongruous GWR signals. In fact the most accurate thing about the whole scene is that some poor sod has to get up at 4am to make it happen, so at least something is right. But they may as well not bother and refer you instead to old photographs in a book.

I don't hear too many complaints about the mineral wagons, though.


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Haven't moved the goalposts at all Master Martin, just replying to the widening of the thread by 45110 who introduced the mass fly past of Spitfires as some justification/example of getting it "right." Have you written that letter of complaint to JH regarding the inaccurate livery of Bittern's support coach?

 

Quite right. I may have posted this before so I apologise if I have but for the record I would much prefer to see 45699 and 45690 in BR green but a) I'm not going to berate the owners for choosing the scheme they have, b) wouldn't hesitate to book a trip behind either should a convenient date present itself and c) would most definitely point my camera at both if I got the chance.

 

You'll forgive me I hope but I was referring to the presumption that anyone with views opposite to yours might disagree with those engineering, aesthetic and practical choices taken.

It's one thing to disagree with a view but another to presume someone's position without first asking them their thoughts.

Interesting why you single me out for that question, not knowing my actual view on the coach in question. I can only conclude that you assume I disapprove?

Since I have no knowledge of the coach in question I couldn't say whether or not it fits in with my thoughts. But for clarity, no I've not written a letter.

Yes I do believe support coaches have a degree of compromises available to them to facilitate main line running. Yes I'd prefer them to be in an accurate livery.

Does that answer satisfy your question?

 

While the thread drift has extended to support coaches, I might mention that the combination of BR green (whatever the correct name for that colour) on Tangmere and Southern green (whatever the correct name for that colour ) on Tangmere's support coach may be authentic but nevertheless clashes horribly (IMHO of course).