NYMR Flying Scotsman Running Week (12th-20th March 2016)

Oh, come on! It's one thing to blindly assume that any loco worked hard is going to be killed to death in an instant, but 17 years later?!

 

Are you of the opinion that a locomotive routinely worked at its limit will not wear out faster than one that isn't?
That was the point being made. Is it desirable that any loco should be worked at its limit if avoidable?
Should a loco fresh out of the shops following an extensive rebuild to put right damage caused by being over stressed immediately be put to work at its limit?
The extensive repairs now necessary on 44767 by all accounts are not the result of a single turn in 1999. They are undoubtedly the cumulative effect of regular hard work of the sort @Steve describes. To suggest otherwise would be idiotic as would the notion of giving 60103 its head just so some juvenile passengers can enjoy the noise from a "thrash".

 

Would 60103 be working on its limit with 8 on? I would be surprised if it was, and therefore it can hardly be described as being "thrashed" but as a loco effectively running in I can understand the caution. There's also the point that the rail head conditions my not be great at this time of year as few or no trains will have run since the new year.

I don't think that in general the NYMR locos can be described as being "thrashed" either. They mostly achieve high mileages between overhauls and don't necessarily cost more to overhaul than locos on other lines. Don't forget that 44767 ran for many seasons on the West Highland line as well, and that is no sinecure. If the suggestion is made that locos should not be worked close to their limit on a day to day basis, surely these operations should be curtailed?

 

It's entirely a matter for the owner of any loco to apply whatever limitations they see fit of course. This seems to be the case with 60103 at NYMR. As we are all aware recommendations about the management of the loco were made in the report which presaged the final phase of the overhaul.
The moors line has steep gradients and sharp curvature so while a 7P may be able to haul 8 coaches unassisted there its a far from optimal combination.
Not having sufficient data and facts to hand, anecdotally I'd say NYMR and the mallaig extension have both proved very arduous for the regular motive power. There may be a danger in conflating correlation as an indicator of causation of course. However latter in particular chews tyres and is acknowledged to routinely require flat out loco performance as a matter of course. The Moors locos generally require the most comprehensive overhauls of any line at the conclusion of their service as well as frequent heavy intermediates would be my observation but I may be wrong. Again, owners prerogative.

 

3672 was the only loco that could take 10 unassisted - standing at the end of Goathland platforms watching (and listening to!) Dame Vera make a steady and assured assent of the last part of the 1 in 49 with 10 on was one of my great Railway experiences. The only other loco to haul 10 in service was 841, but assisted by a Class 25. 10 was too long for Goathland and Pickering Loops, so the other train had to be in first at Goathland and the C & W shunter draw a couple of coaches off the back to allow run-round at Pickering. There was probably only about half a dozen occasions when 10 coach passenger trains were run (I think 18 was the pre-season stock move record!), all requiring careful co-ordination by the Operating Department to stock-pile spare coaches at Grosmont to strengthen "the train" - the 15:35 from Grosmont to Pickering. Can't swear the attached picture is such a 10 coach train, but the effort, whilst noisy, was not necessarily that "visual" in the peak season warmth (remember warm summers?)

Before it became a dedicated set, The Moorlander Pullman Sunday Lunch train ran as 9 quite regularly, certainly at Special Events. A service set of 6 had 3 dining car added and I seem to recall 901, 2253 and 34101 would handle that load as well as 3672.

However, locos are now older and restrictions on what they haul are applied. Even this week, The Moorlander set at 7 is being worked by a steam loco on one end and a Class 25 on the other.

76079 will have worked over 15,000 in 2015, which is one of the highest mileages ever (80135 once did 18,000 in 12 months from an April to March) and our late CME David Fawcett reckoned that well maintained locomotives in NYMR service should be able to manage 12,000 miles per annum, although business planning tends to go for 9,000 to 10,000 miles and I know some of the engineers would like less than that!

The biggest the engine, the more the wear of heavily curved routes such as the Moors Line and the West Highland extension.

Steven

 

One would assume that any railway worth its salt would be maintaining their locomotives in such a way that they never 'wear out' (save overhauls, obviously)!

 

We're not discussing a loco owned by a railway for a start and all things mechanical wear which is why they require maintaining.
The more you use it and the more strenuous the use, the more rapid the wear? Ways to conserve locos include limiting the loads, gradients and frequency associated with the usage.
It may be a generalisation but railways not ultimately responsible for the long term maintenance bills are less concerned with the conservation aspect.

 

To suggest otherwise would be idiotic as would the notion of giving 60103 its head just so some juvenile passengers can enjoy the noise from a "thrash".[/QUOTE]
I do hope that you're not employing that I'm juvenile just because I like to see and hear a locomotive working hard. It's never simple. Is it? I'm sure that most of us would agree that it's better to see a loco out working than in a museum. I am equally sure that many of us would prefer to see a large loco working on the main line than on a preserved railway. Where do we draw the line? It would be good for the health of an engine for it never to be worked. 60103 would require far fewer overhauls on static display around the turntable in York. Why do we want to see locos in steam? Is it not because we wish to see them being put through their paces? That isn't to say that 60103 should be given 8 on its first run up the 1 in 49 but the run from Grosmont to Goathland isn't the spectacle that it used to be. The NYMR is still my favourite heritage line and I'm sure that careful consideration has been made when deciding on train length. I was merely making an observation.

 

To offer a simple response @7822WelshSteam specifically in relation to 60103.
Having had a vast amount of public money poured into restoring it to its best condition for many decades my opinion is that it should be worked well within its limits for the foreseeable future. The recommendations of the FCP report being most salient in this regard. "Guaranteed thrash" must be avoided, leave that to owners and operators of other locos who are less worried about the long term effects.

 

8 coaches on Goathland bank would be well within the capability of an A3, as would 15 coaches up Shap. However, would you say that it would be a good idea to hang 15 on the drawbar on an ascent of Shap? I doubt it, especially with a loco that you are wanting to look after. Why have I used 15 coaches on Shap? Quite simply because 8 coaches plus A3 on the 1 in 49 requires more or less the same tractive effort as 15 coaches plus A3 on the 1 in 75 of Shap. Let's also not forget that the 1 in 49 is nominal and there is a 15 chain length of 1 in 42/3 on a 13 chain curve to overcome.

 

http://www.nymr.co.uk/special-events/flying-scotsman/

Revised timetable

ex Pickering

0810 DMU - Grosmont
0940 Steam/diesel top n tail - Grosmont
1055 DMU - Goathland to Grosmont only
1100 FS - Grosmont
1240 Steam/diesel top n tail - Grosmont
1400 FS - Grosmont
1450 DMU - Grosmont
1700 FS - Grosmont

ex Grosmont

0930 FS - Pickering
0955 DMU - Grosmont to Goathland only
1115 Steam/diesel top n tail - Pickering
1230 FS - Pickering
1320 DMU - Pickering
1530 FS - Pickering
1620 Steam/diesel top n tail - Pickering
1820 DMU - Pickering

 

I will be trying to head up to the Moors to see the Scotsman if possible, I don't see why there should be any debate regarding banking assistance- doesn't detract from the experience and can only be good for the loco longer term- I'm sure regardless of the banker it will still be working hard and quite a spectacle to behold!

Bit off topic, but regarding loads & performance how did 92214 compare to 3672?

Chris

 

It's a bit hard to compare the two as 92214 was never subject to the loads that were hung on 3672. 92214 was also a lot more refined, if I can say that! The reverser on 3672 was out by, in my reckoning, about 20% so that an indicated mid gear was nearer 20% back gear so it wasn't exactly well set up.

 

I can imagine that made operation somewhat exciting for those not familiar with her quirks!
Chris

 

Three car DMU now a steam loco with MK1s

 

The success of advance sales for the Flying Scotsman trains is of great personal delight to me for reasons I can never go into on here!

On perhaps only a handful of occasions, 3672 took 10 well laidened coaches up the 1 i 49 from Grosmont to Goathland - no other loco has done that un-asssited (841 did with a "box on the back" as they say around here!) and as Steve says, 92214 never got the chance to try - we do aim not to inflict such cruelty on steam locos these days! Watching and listening to her arrival at Goathland is one of the great steam experiences of my life, and that of my mother, Dorothy, another long standing NYMR volunteer - "hairs on the back of your head" is the only way to describe it!

Dame Vera Lynn is a much loved loco on the NYMR. There is a fund open to assist with her return to traffic, which will be a mammoth task, but this is a loco which averaged 10.000 miles a year in her 10 year boiler ticket and which had seen ground breaking work on her firebox to get her into traffic in the first place. so please her get her back into traffic as much as you can.

Steven

 

It will be good if a more high profile "relaunch" of the appeal can be made this year.

 

You'd better tell that to the people planning the event, then!!

 

Timetable and what type of extra trains running now published and available on main site.
The FS currently at York (NRM) for painting into Green and for checking of slightly warm running on front wheels.

 

I just have booked my train tickets to see the flying Scotsman this Saturday.. I'm well excited. I'm coming to Grosmont and I was wondering if someone can direct to a good videoing location of the flying Scotsman climbing the steepest gradients please??? I'm prepared to walk at least a few miles of possible

I done a little research and found A place called beckhole?