Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Yes, I can't see that we will ever get more space at EG, so we will always be limited to a single platform and run-round loop. For that reason, the current set up (one train in section; points operated by the loco crew using the token to unlock the ground frame) works perfectly well. Speaking personally, I can't see any operational advantage to developing a more complex arrangement at East Grinstead. Allowing two trains north of Kingscote would only have two uses: you could pass a passenger train and a goods train at EG (i.e. goods train arrives in the loop while a passenger train waits to depart from the platform); or you could have an incoming / outgoing service to Network Rail while a passenger train waited in the Bluebell platform. Neither situation strikes me as frequent enough to make it worth investing a lot of scarce money in more complicated signalling infrastructure. Putting a nice big semaphore starting signal at EG (remotely worked from Kingscote) would help develop the visual ambience of the station, but it would be purely for show; it wouldn't increase operational flexibility.

I should probably clarify that allowing the signalman to travel with the train is a consequence of having the king levers at Kingscote, but whether that was the operational requirement that initially led to that plan for the levers I suspect is less likely, though it was initially developed before my time and I don't know what the reason was for adding that extra level of complexity.

Tom

 

You could still have the goods operation or train off NR with no signals and the existing ground frame arrangement if you had platform permissive working. This is what can happen at Whitby. I'm assuming that there is a key token instrument at E. Grinstead, otherwise that nice looking one at Kingscote is wasted!

 

No, there's nothing at EG at the moment. An up train leaving Kingscote takes the token and, apart from using it to unlock the run-round ground frame, nothing happens to the token until it is returned to the Kingscote signalman on the return journey.

For movements to/from Network Rail, the token has to be taken by road in one direction, which is one limiting factor on how quickly such a move can be carried out. Such moves tend to be either out of hours or on Service 1 days - I think it would be just about possible on a Service 2 day provided the times on the NR side exactly matched up, but wouldn't have any resilience.

Why do you think the token machine at Kingscote is redundant? Even assuming the current one train in section, how would you work safely without the token?

Tom

 

I think that Steve's point is that without a 2nd instrument, anything more than an OES train staff is wasted. I suspect there *were* 2 instruments, one at each of the Kingscote boxes, until recently though, and that passive provision has been made for a second instrument at EG in due course.

John

 

Ah, I see. Yes, there were two token instruments up until the end of last year, that in the "north" box (technically at that time not actually a signal box) acting as a slave released by the signalman in the "south" box. Generally, token exchanges took place at the south box, but they took place at the north box (i.e. on the platform) when trains crossed at Kingscote. There is indeed passive provision for an extension of signalling at East Grinstead (the first 21 levers on the frame have been left clear): when, if at all, it happens I don't know. As I say, personally I am not sure it provides a lot of enhancement to current operational flexibility, especially given that the current Kingscote - East Grinstead - Kingscote time is about the same length of time that it takes to get two trains through the SP - HK section, so allowing two trains north of East Grinstead wouldn't as far as I can see lead to any enhancement in service frequency beyond our current limit of about one train every 40 minutes.

Tom

 

That was basically my point. Without a second instrument, a simple one engine in steam staff will suffice and avoids all the needs for maintenance of the instrument and contingency plan if it fails to cooperate when you come to take out a token.

If you have a token instrument t E Grinstead, you do have some flexibility if you have platform permissive.

 

Where I see the usefulness of the terminal instrument at EG is for running trains on or off the NR network, either with a train locked into the Bluebell platform, or saving the road journey for the token.

I agree that further signalling beyond that wouldn't add much in the way of flexibility.

John

 

From the Bluebell e-Newsletter:

"KINGSCOTE SIGNALLING UPDATE: COMMISSIONING IS PROGESSING WELL

Signalling at Kingscote has been out of use since 11 Jan., 2016 to allow Signals & Telecommunications (S&T) volunteers to change the control of the Kingscote area from the temporary signal box at the south end of the loop to the station signal box.

The project was started almost four years ago when parts of the Westinghouse "L" style miniature lever frame were recovered from Devon and donated by the Dartmouth Steam Railway. Since then a small team of S&T staff have worked on collecting, restoring, and building the new lever frame.

Not so obvious is the less glamorous but equally important work behind the scenes--the design of the scheme and circuits that operate the signalling and telephone systems; installing thousands of electrical connections; preparing paper work to support safety-critical systems; and planning the commissioning, testing the circuits, and producing certification.

The commissioning period is now two thirds of the way through, with a built-in contingency for recovering a substantial amount of redundant material. This is a real achievement for the staff who have given up their time during the coldest period of the year.

To the casual observer little has changed outside the signal box, but in fact much has been altered. Every signal telephone has been rerouted to the new telephone concentrator (switch board), additional emergency phone plug in points have been installed and tested, and dial phones reassigned. The signals and points that were worked mechanically have been fitted with machines, cabled and connected to the new signal box. Additional track circuits have been installed, and along with all the remaining track circuits, diverted to the new relay room and signal box.

Along with the dormant signals installed during the East Grinstead extension, two additional signals have been brought into work. One is for access to the Down siding at the East Grinstead end of the loop platform and the other provides access into the Up siding. Although the points and signals have been fully tested into the Up siding, these will be left out of work as the track requires much attention before it can be used by traffic.

The siding exit signal has been converted from a position light signal into a mechanical disc, much more in keeping with the 1955 era. In future, the token exchange will take place at the north end of the station. When trains pass, station staff will confirm the presence of a tail lamp by operating one of two "train arrived complete" (TAC) plungers. The East Grinstead token will be worked as before except that the "no signalman instrument" has been removed and will eventually be installed at East Grinstead for incoming NR traffic (this is why, at present, there are patches on the signalman's diagram)."

 

Just out of interest, did this move have anything to do with the Bluebell?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O66513/2016/02/01/advanced

 

Yes, 20142 and 20189 went to the Bluebell. Photos of them at Sheffield Park are on the Preserved Diesels group on Facebook.

 

And also a photo on the Bluebell "What's new" page: http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/whats_new.html

Meanwhile, a reminder that the line re-opens this weekend, B473 and 73082 taking the honours on the loco front - see the latest loco roster: http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/loco_roster.html

Also a quick reminder that the timetable has altered slightly this year, the significant difference at weekends being that (a) the first train is now 10:00am ex-SP / 10:55 ex-EG, but still with an 11:32 arrival back a The Park and (b) the first train of the day (10:00am / 12:15pm / 2:45pm / 5:15pm SaO ex-SP) will now be the small engine / vintage carriages; and the second train (11:00 am / 1.30pm /4:00pm) will be the larger engine. See http://www.bluebell-railway.com/timetable-and-fares/service-two/

Tom

 

Thank you, does anyone know why they are visiting?

 

Just seen on facebook pictures of the C class and coaches on their way to London for the filming. The formation of the train is: a class 20, the 3 Maunsells, the 100 seater, the Brighton bogie first, the 3 4-wheel coaches, 592 and a class 20. The C class and all coaches except the Maunsells are weathered.

Edit: subsequent photos show that the C class and all coaches are weathered on one side only. The Maunsells are weathered on the left side facing London. 592 and the rest of the coaches are weathered on the right hand side.

 

The Bluebell stock is currently sat in Platform 0, and as I was passing the barriers to platform 1 were open. 592 looks great under the roof. Grabbed a quick couple of pics on my phone before heading to work.

http://i.imgur.com/PQJOHvM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/n5Y5ntE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HoAIhGz.jpg

 

The whole train looks great. Nice to see some decent, comfortable railway carriages at a London terminus for a change. Doesn't happen often apart from the Pullmans at Victoria. Today's trains may run faster and be far more sturdily constructed in the event of an accident, but in terms of comfort and general ambience, it's defintely been downhill all the way since the 1930s.

I hope they won't be gone for too long. Just looked at the "services for the coming week" page of the website and the shorter "vintage" train hauled by B473 consists of Mk 1s as well as most carriages in the longer set to be hauled by 73082.

 

I think the 2 Class 20's are the ones which arrived by road at Sheffield Park the other day. According to the Bluebell Facebook page they signed a non disclosure agreement so couldn't say why they were there.

I know it's meant to be a Warner Brothers production but must be quite a big one to be using Kings Cross and having to sign a non disclosure agreement . Hopefully another future publicity boost for the line.

 

Well I did um and ah about going out for the 2am run through north London, but decided it was a lot more hospitable to head down the The Cross today. The signalled doing a very good job of only leaving the adjacent platform empty for a couple of minutes every hour. Very surreal seeing the bluebell stock in that setting!

 

Even at the weekend, I'm surprised they can spare a platform at King's Cross for the C and coaches, let alone ensuring the adjacent one is clear for photo ops. The C looks good there, though.

 

Hi,

There are a few pictures from earlier here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/steam60163/


Cheers,
Alisdair

 

They had 2 platforms, as well as these coaches there were further coaches in platform 0

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