The Douglas Bay Horse Tramway

Last year the trams ran from 11th May to 13th Sept with a 20 min service from 09.00 to 17.20.
Cheers,
Ray.

 

Thanks for that. I shall watch for further developments...

 

And who knows how many bed nights they might lose from people who book independently and not on organised tours? If we choose not to go, that's another 14, more if we might have stayed for more than a week. And it's not just this one year we're talking about...

 

This is all very well but it still does not address the problem of which part of the denuded public purse will meet the expense. It will surely be the public purse as yer av'rage gricer does not operate much beyond the "wouldn't it be nice" level. I recall someone in this thread observing that the I.M.R. and the M.E.R. swallow around £1 million between them so the Manx Govt. are hardly likely to want to pay for more vintage transport.

PH

 

Paul, you and I often agree on the subject of the 'nice to haves'. However in this case we're not talking about some 'crackpot' new build or pointless 'new generation' line but a unique tramway which is an important visitor attraction and generates income, indirectly, to the Island as a whole. I have tried to simply provide the facts in my posts and avoid emotive comment. I realise that see your posts as being 'realistic' but I think that you are now just being 'negative' for the sake of it so we will just have to agree to disagree. Like you I am also an active volunteer and have been for 50 years. If those of us who were establishing preservation schemes in the late 60's had listened to the 'naysayers' today's heritage railway scene would be very different.
Ray.

 

Do you mean the 'neigh-sayers'?

I've only been to the IOM once but we certainly went on the horse tram several times, our hotel was about 3/4 of the way along the Promenade and I don't think we walked it if there was a tram available as we just thought it was too much hassle. What I can't remember is how the ticketing worked - is there a weekly ticket available? If there is you are probably more likely to get repeat passengers and hence full trams.

 

Sorry I have to defend myself. Nowhere have I said that this is "crackpot" in any way. However the tramway will not keep going without money.

Already the I.O.M. has two systems which swallow up a good deal of public subsidy. Additionally the Island has one preserved line (Groudle) and another steam railway (Laxey Mines). I would imagine these mop up the majority of the more practical sort of enthusiasts who have some idea of how much things cost and how much work they involve. Perhaps the local "horsy^ people could be involved?

Mere quasi-religious belief will not be enough.

As before, best of luck

PH

 

There were 'day tickets' which were 5.70 against 3 pounds single and resident's and non-resident's annual passes. I seem to think that the horsetrams have also been included in the GO Explorer cards which offer unlimited travel (for 1,3,5 or 7 days)on all the Gov't owned public transport in recent years. Hope you'll come visit us again.
Ray.

 

Paul, in no way did I intend to suggest that you had used the term "crackpot". It was I who used the term, and have used it more than once before in my posts to describe some of the barmier schemes.
Whilst I have to agree with you that most of the steam oriented volunteers are pretty well committed at Groudle Glen, Laxey Mines, the Orchid Line and as Heritage Railway Volunteers on the IMR there is a rapidly growing tramway oriented group now supporting the MER not just with the MER museum but also restoring trams and other rolling stock. As you also mentioned some of the 'horsey' types have expressed an interest in supporting the horsetrams. I don't think there are any illusions about the likely costs but the working group has only been going for a week and we have to give them a chance to come up with a viable plan.
Ray.

 

It seems daft to say it but the horse trams are the last of an overlapping line of European horse railways that goes right back to at least 1604. In this sense it is unique and arguably more important to save than another steam line of which we have many examples. However someone has to fund the operation and therein lies the problem, steam is more popular than horses.


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Maybe at some point, I have unfinished business with the Manx Northern having given up trying to walk it in a gale and squelched off thoroughly drenched to the nearest bus stop.
A day ticket is arguably less helpful on the trams than a week ticket. If you buy a day ticket you might end up only catching the tram one way and you feel like you've been done, so you only buy a single and then definitely walk back. Buy a weekly for the cost of about 5 or 6 trips and you'll probably use it twice a day because it will seem like good value. Anyway, just a thought.
Would I go back without the horse trams? It would certainly put me off.


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If continuation of the tramway were put through the cost-benefit analysis it would probably come out as a wonderful investment

 

Why were they proposing new stables anyway? What's wrong with the old ones?

 

This is beside the point. If there is no money around how good a particular return might be is irrelevant. Wishful thinking is no help at all to those trying to find an answer.

PH

 

To be honest I don't know. There was mention on Manx Radio last week of a pigeon problem but I can't see that being enough to justify 2.9 million quid being spent on converting part of the tram sheds into new stables. The 'conspiracy theorist' in me suspects that this was simply to make a stronger case for closure as the repayments would have increased the present loss of 263,000 p.a. to over 400k p.a. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers, in the 60's, huge amounts of money being spent on relaying certain lines which, shortly afterwards, were slated for closure because the upkeep greatly exceeded the revenue.
Ray.

 

The point that I'm making Paul is that CBA would probably show that the tramway has more value to the island's economy than the operational loss suffered by the Douglas Council.

 

If the money is simply not available then a CBA is little better than one of those medieval discussions about how many angels can be found on the point of a needle.

PH

 

I don't have near enough knowledge to form any real judgement, but I too was suspicious of the "we need to spend £2.9M" on stables last year, and now we cant find £268k / yr to keep it going. Add this to the proposed but dropped realignment and I do wonder if the council/government simply haven't decided that the tramway is simply in the way (of what I know not).

 

One difference though to be borne in mind is revenue -v- capital spend. £2.9m on capital spend perhaps balanced by a capital receipt from selling the old stables site may even create a £ positive outcome. The new stables sharing the one facility might also reduce future running costs. Running costs will come out of the Council's total revenue pot every year and losses have to be funded in the same financial year. Don't know the situation on the IoM but merging facilities onto one site to reduce gross overheads seems an entirely sensible option unless there are constraints that prevent the old site being sold. Even with such a constraint of no old site sale it might be better year on year to mothball one and concentrate on the other.


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A CBA would probably show that closing the tramway to save £260,000 would lose more than that to the island's economy. So they would go from no money to minus no money.