Discussion on EMU's from the Cig 3 thread.

Hello,
The 4TC currently at Butterly, former LT set, is subject to an appeal for use on the Swanage Railway.
See www.4tc.org


Nick

 

Hello,
Many thanks.......
Nick

 

The importance of the 3rd Rail EMU in the transport and social history of the south seat is undeniable. Anyone reading this thread will already be interested in the subject. Sadly the great majority of enthusiasts class EMUs as the lowest element (maybe wagons are a bit lower, not to me though). Its locos first, then who cares what we ride in as long as i can get my head out the window metallity. Some of us though see more, some of us think coaches are more interesting or as interesting. Coaching stock people will hopefully appreciate if not always agree with EMU preservation then DMUs will win over EMUs. Railway preservation is all about showing history, and a huge amount of it is rusting away. If you live in say Brighton for many years EMUs have been your main way of rail travel but where do you go to experiance that slam door trip to london. Yes the Bluebell is near by but it has no EMUs (the 4COR was asked to leave only a few years ago). On the IOW the IoWR has a excellent colection showing the history of the Islands Railways but where is a coach from a VEC/TES unit, they were actually hauled by a 02 on gauging runs. Thats a huge piece of Island history missing. Hopefully they will get at least one 38 stock to go in Train Story.

Really what is needed is a Southern out post of the NRM. Get the SUB,EPB,BIL and all the rest on show and undercover. Some one was at one time i remember talking about doing somthing in the Lancing area but that came to nothing.

I agree things like the 4-SUB should not be left to rot. In recent months i have become involved in the group which is promoting interest in the 4-DD class, and we have linked to local history Facebook groups in the areas the units used to run. As long as you dont go technical the general public do have an interest in what they travelled on.

Whats the answer, money as always.

 

This unit has run on the main line taking power from the 3rd rail when preserved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_503

Unfortunately no longer in good condition but one day maybe.

 

There are some very real difficulties with 'non steam' preserved stock

I think it is almost certain that there will never be a preserved 3rd rail line and diesel spares by their nature are not as easy to manufacture as steam.

However I quite agree that the custodianship of 'non steam' - or even steam era rolling stock often hasn't been something to be proud of with several historic items coming close to being lost. or in some cases scrapped.

The history of the Quad Art set springs to mind - just I might add as an example rather than criticism of any of the parties involved

 

The problem with 3rd rail emu stock is that for too many they remind them of a very bad time from their daily commutes
All the systems on them are powered via the MG, sets get damp and internal damage sets in once stored off the juice, Many of the vehicles in the middle of a 4 coach set will have only a centre buffer so if you are using one as hauled stock, and a vehicle goes defective, its going to be a lot of work to remove the defective vehicle not a five minute split the buckeye job, i believe , then you need a working eth fitted air braked deisel.

 

Didn't know about the MG set issue, I'd always thought it a shame that preserved lines don't use EMUs as loco stock-even if it meant taking the motors out to reduce drag.

I'm amazed there's no 3rd rail heritage line yet. I know the biggest issue is probably the safety of a third rail next to the track, but with proper safe systems of working it should be controllable. Even if it meant enclosing the sides like I believe the siemens test track does.
I volunteer at Crich tramway, I've always understood our running gear to be a lighter version of mainline EMU stuff. There are 5 or so tram museums proving that 600V electrical equipment can be ran as a heritage operation, though again I realise tramway stuff isn't as heavy duty.
For added interest, a 3rd rail line could be used to run London Underground stock too, if said stock is modified to return through the wheels. Given its location I've never understood why the Epping Ongar hasn't done this? Though I suppose cost would be a big hurdle.

 

Phil - as II understand the issue the problem is not voltage related but the issues with safety and the third rail. Crich uses standard tramway overhead wires which are very unlikely to be a source of accidental contact.

There is the issues regarding traction suplies as to where it can be sourced. I may be wrong but the lowest suply to the SR was at 33kV. Idoubt the heritage movement has many engineers qualified to maintain electrical equipment at these voltages. Yes I do appreciate trains would not be going that fast. The problems occur at starting when high currents are drawn.

Are 3rd rail EMUs looked on with affection or loathing. Well I comuted for 16 yrs from Staplehurst and my feelings are

4 CEP / BEP in their pre refurb state they hold good memories
2HAP worth putting up with but do have the central buffer issue
4VEP scrap the lot - cold drafty poor riding and hard uncomfortable seats - they should have built more CEP.
4CIG - never strayed into Kent , always on the Brighton, but from what I heard similar issues to the VEP but with less doors to cause drafts
4EPB should keep an example but can see issues with the single buffer and chain coupling. Not insurmountable to fit buckeyes in their place as on Eastern Region
4SUB see 4EPB

Would I travel to ride on a SR EMU - not sure I would even for old times sake

 

One of the issues (if we ignore for the moment the high voltage power supply) is the danger of the 3rd rail. Ensuring that the volunteers at the site keep off and treat it with respect may not be so easy. Photographers and Joe Public also stray on to the track at times. If some one was killed or maimed by the 3rd rail then the consequences for the operating line and all of the heritage movement are not worth thinking about.

One solution (although not prototipical) would be to fit and install DLR style shoes gear and power rails. Would not look right but would allow the units to run and sound correctly, much better than a loud diesel generator in a guards van.

 

Seems there are quite a few SR EMUs around all owned by different groups, is there a co-ordinating body as such eg. a EMUs owners group?

A second question, having seen the collection at Coventry from the gate (was visiting the fantastic and recomended aircraft museum next door, the rly museum was closed). Do they have a long lease on the site? Also do they have plans to constuct a shed to keep the units safe?

 

Yeah, you'd have to keep the lines very secure from wandering idiots-but then the entire southern region has managed this for a while.
Must admit I don't know why SERA are located in Coventry, it's miles from anywhere that had EMUs. You're right about putting a building up, same goes for all the rare and interesting coaching stock lying about. Perhaps instead of whatever the next new build steam project will be, we could build an enormous carriage storage shed somewhere.

 

This is bordering on the Carriage Shed thread in the Heritage Rolling Stock section. But what is the point in restoring something, to have to do it all again 5 years later.

 

The point is many who give to New Build will not give to a carriage shed fund, only us carriage people will do that. One day we many have new build carriages when the supply of quallity 4-wheel bodies dries up but i dont think that will spread to new build EMUs to replace gaps. The 4-SUB and 4-EPB are of national importance and should be owned by the nation, if the NRM has no room then they can be loaned out or stored.

 

The NRM have a DMBTO of a 4-SUB preserved number 8143 from unit 4308. Also when was the last time the Bluebell operated their 4-VEP on the Bluebell.

 

The DMBTO is admittedly part of the National Collection but it reflects the 1930/40 period, the 4-SUB would reflect the 1950/60 and the 4-EPB 1960/70. Sadly the link from slam door to sliding door PEPs have not had a single carriage preserved, a private attempt was appartently made when they were withdrawn at Strawberry Hill but this was not taken seriously by BRB. Now we think its hard to preserve slam door EMUs what troble will the nest generation have when it comes to 319s 445s and 465s. they are just as valid in the history books.

 

I think one of the issues with running EMUs as conventional loco-hauled stock for most preserved railways (apart from the weight penalty) is that EMUs are not compatible with steam heating. That means you can only really run them during the summer, but have to provide storage space all year round. In addition, I believe that, without being heated during the winter, such stock is more susceptible than conventional stock to problems caused by damp. In the circumstances, it is easy to imagine why for many railways - especially those whose main business is in steam traction - with limited capacity to maintain rolling stock or store it under cover, heavy vehicles useable for only part of the year and more susceptible than normal to problems caused by damp may not be high on anyone's shopping list.

Tom

 

I think the NRM coach is from about 1925 but typical of SR emus they were very long lived and were around into the 60s maybe even the 70s in isolated cases. The difference between the these and the later SUBs and EPBs is not vast and this coach illustrates the story well, plus it is superb! With limited space, a four car is out of the question on a museum setting

 

Agree but there is also a need for a interactive element and a 4 car SUB or EPB retained by the NRM but located, maintained and used for events in the south at dept open days or such like could have worked.

 

Ther is another problem in addition to Toms reference to steam heat. The 4VEP is air brake only and needs a loco with both main train pipe and resevoir pipe. I dont think the Bluebell has many of those. Whilst single pipe will work with loco hauled coaches it is not possible with EMU s from the EPB onwards. The EP stock have a single handle which opens both main and resevoir simultaniously. The loco hauled coaches have separate valves