Flying Scotsman

I just think the NRM may be missing a trick here with the high profile of the engine and its return to steam , an appeal and fund raising where ever 60103 goes,to raise the money to pay for a new casting so that in future it may be possible to portray it in the right eternal condition to accuratly reflect the livery it may carry, such as BR blue, or even Apple green , especially if it can be done early enough so that it does not impact on the finances of the museum.

 

The loco has just returned to steam after a long-running and successful campaign to prise the money out of peoples pockets. To ask for more (for FS) at this juncture would be a mistake IMO. Now, if you want to see a single chimney Gresley machine in Apple Green....raise funds for the V2, and guess what...she could even wear BR green with no change to her physical appearance!

 

I think someone should cast a bronze duck to sit on the front running board. Just saying ...

 

I'm looking forward to seeing FS "down my way" in whatever livery, but given the choice, I'd much rather she was painted LNER green and numbered 4472. That's how I remember her from the late 1960s onwards.

I like the idea of keeping up the development of the loco, so if @JJG Koopmans, @Sheff or members of the 5AT crew can come up with a more efficient exhaust in the single chimney outline, then I'd be all for it - so long as the resulting exhaust draft was sharp enough to keep the smoke clear of the boiler, otherwise we're back to needing "blinkers", in which case we might as well stick to the current Kylchap arrangement.

As @Jamessquared says, Flying Scotsman, more than any other preserved loco, has a countinuous, and continuing, history, and any livery that her owners and operators choose to present her in will be "authentic" for that time - witness the rather wonderful "wartime" black, with three different numbers, that she sported on the ELR and on her various "test runs" during the past few weeks.

 

There was something well balanced and appealing about the original A1s and I agree about Apple Green but I think, being a locomotive so much in the public eye the NRM will want to keep it in its current form to make sure it's always recognisable to those not in the know.

 

But surely its current form ensures its *not* recognisable to those not in the know...

 

A whole new generation has now grown up since it ran in apple green and those that were around probably don't remember it anyway. I'm sure the intention was to keep a "brand awareness " of the engine for the general public. Sorry to use that dreadful term but I'm sure the NRM used it around the time the overhaul commenced. Perhaps Mr Coulls could enlighten us on the official line. The worst option would be to turn it back into a meaningless hybrid as it was in current configuration painted LNER Green

 

Nonsense and spoken like a true photographer. Almost every film that is shown on the TV regarding FS will show her as 4472. Enthusiasts will know what 60103 is but they are not the target market. No doubt the NRM will explain it all to those who wonder what has happened to 4472. When she ran as 4472 with blinkers et al, I doubt Joe Public cared one iota.

 

The argument over livery would be null and void if the "Blinkers" were not needed. I have not seen so many complaints about Bittern and Sir Nigel Gresley who both have a Double Chimney and non authentic livery. Though Tornado can be painted any Livery because she never carried one in service. Duchess of Sutherland is also famous for non authentic livery with "Smoke Deflectors" again the arguments are not as passionate. I know it's expensive, non authentic and would not be done as it allready has "Blinkers". I think FS would look better with the "Humorist" style of smoke deflector.

 

I don't think Joe Public take much notice of railway fims on TV and I was speaking as a railway historian, there is no point in preserving anything to illustrate history if you are then going to bastardise it.

 

Preciseley 'Enthusiasts' this is the peoples engine we are talking about, they(the man-woman-child) will see the loco that is put in front of them as 'Flying Scotsman', another generation will grow up with that vision being an A3, just as I did as a lad, that is why Scotsman as 4472 has been a massive disappointment to me for the last nigh on 50 years, I mourned the passing of the A3's, to me they were the epitome of an East Coast Greyhound, long, sleek and, with Gerry Blinks, the 4472 brigade have had their own way for the last nigh on 50 years, so would they please let me, and my like, bask in the light of the ability to once again, gaze at a beautiful, powerful, A3 once more...

 

No argument over liveries its distortion of history as you have done in your post, Sutherland was the only Duchess to survive long enough in red to receive smoke deflectors. Although not accurate for the particular locomotives there were four A4s built with double Kylchap. It's a matter of opinion if it's OK to represent a particular part of the general History of a class of locomotive like this, personally I can see nothing wrong with it. Where I disagree with the likes of Spamcan who doesn't care how it looks as long as it's a nice steam loco for him to photograph, is the creation of historically meaningless hybrids such as 4472 immediately before its overhaul and the infamous red 8F.

 

Agree, the GBP do see FS as the Apple Green loco that she became famous for. Though it's now an old program the James May series Toy Stories and famously had a model of the FS (with realistic chuffing sound). It was in Apple Green and number 4472. Yes people will get used to the idea of the BR green and 60163, however there will still be people who will say it's not the "Real FS". While others will see an Apple Green FS as not a "Real A3". I suppose it depends on where you sit "FS as singular loco/brand" or "FS as a standard A3 pacific loco".

 

Humorist was given the larger "Peppercorn" style smoke deflectors in 1947. I am guessing it was also repainted in Apple Green at the time. So form a historical point of view FS could be fitted with these and still be "authenticly representing" what happened in the past. Though the number would have to be 103 not 4472, it would however bridge the gap between eras. As like you say it represents what 1 A3 pacific loco looked like at a point in history. Similar to what the 2 A4's do.

Also was not the Boiler that FS now carries once fitted to Humorist?

 

The BR green livery applied, don't forget, was the livery picked for by Steam Railway Magazine readers and paid for by them - before the overhaul became very protracted. The money was diverted I remember to the braking system from that point on. Arguably the current livery is to fulfil that obligation by the NRM to repaint their charge. It does, however, make a lot of sense of to do this as the locomotive is now fully accurate for her 1960s BR condition (minus tender, of course, but the tender's livery is accurate and it did carry it, albeit behind an A4 Pacific).

 

Don't have a problem with her being BR Green for a while. It's just that it seems to be implied that this is now the ONLY livery that she can now carry for the rest of her preservation life. This is where I don't agree and feel that there are other options availble which won't affect "authenticity" to a degree.

 

But the NRM have never said that this is what she will stay in. In fact they've been pretty open about applying other liveries in future.

I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that she's going to look magnificent in whatever livery she is in, when finished. An excellent painting team is behind this last bit of the restoration and Ian Riley and Co have done an amazing job to get her where she needs to be mechanically, and probably better if reports and videos are anything to go by.

I'm all for the apple green, but let's have the debate in a couple of years please. In that time let her get back into the public consciousness.

 

A railway historian? Thought you were a retired insurance salesman? And Joe Public does take note of railway films on TV. Yesterday regularly screens a 4472 documentary and I doubt the audience is solely made up of acne ridden train spotters. Anyway John, you can't have your cake and eat it. You have stated that you are happy for 45690 to carry an inauthentic (for her) BR black livery as other members of the class carried it. So why would it not be OK for 4472 to carry an inaccurate (for her) LNER livery (should a single chimney ever materialise) when other class members carried it? At least be constant in your arguments.

 

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Agreed. Never did photograph an A3 in final BR condition as my first camera arrived long after they'd all been withdrawn so I am looking forward to filling a large gap in my photo archive. Didn't ride behind one either on the main line so looking to correct that omission too.

 

I never said it wasn't ok the hybrid was Apple green with double chimney and smoke deflectors and railway historian and modeller in the amatuer sense as you well know