Next NRM restoration and other questions?

Hi, been a lurker on here for a while so I hope this is in the right section and it's not a duplicate thread.
I was wondering if anybody knew what locomotives could possibly be returned to steam after the restoration of Flying Scotsman has now been completed. Anyone know if something that hasn't run for a while is on the cards to return? Midland Compound 1000, the GNR Ivatt or the D class would be amazing for me personally. How likely are any of them to return to steam in the future? Also, does anyone know what the future lies for City of Truro and Green Arrow? Are these condemned to an eternity of static display?
Will anything be on the cards at all given funding cuts?

Any information will be greatly appreciated! Thank you for your time!

 

I believe there was intention to restore the Stanier 3 cylinder tank a few years ago, but that has gone quiet.

 

Any plan to restore any NRM artefact will have to include a third party who has a proven track record and the ability to raise the money needed and then ensue once restored the engine is properly operated and looked after, the NRM does not have a budget headed as loco restoration funds . As to what engine it should be, ask 100 people , you will get 100 different answers. for me either the Adams T3, or the Wainwight D would be my first choice the D especially would look very nice at shefield park next to the Atlantic especially if both were in 1950's lined black

 

http://www.nrmfriends-south.org.uk/Talks_Reports/sp1211.html

 

As far as I am aware the only National Collection steam locomotive currently being returned to steam is LMSR 4F 4027-44027. Who the third party involved is through is unclear. Gloucestershire-Warwickshire Railway has been quoted by the NRM but the locomotives departure to the Vale of Berkeley Railway suggests actually a group who have relocated from the Gloucestershire-Warwickshire Railway to the Vale of Berkeley Railway. I presume someone can clarify.

The only other steam locomotive that appears to be the subject of an overhaul agreement is WD 0-6-0ST 75133-138 'King Feisal of Iraq'. This is currently at the Flour Mill Workshop whose website says "This 1944 Hunslet ‘Austerity’, which belongs to the National Railway Museum but is on long-term loan to the Flour Mill, is awaiting a heavy general overhaul.".

Other National Collection steam locomotives currently operational through third parties are SR 30120, 30587, 30777, 30850, 30925 and BR 70013. Whilst the NRM has LNER 60103 and the 1979 replica 'Rocket'.

 

I too would love to see the Compound returned to steam. As far as I know it has no specific problems and simply retired at the end of its ticket. However, we have the old problem of viability. It would only be approved for a light load on the main line. I doubt that NR would be convinced that such a machine could again take 350 tons from Carlisle over the S&C and reach Leeds in under 140 minutes. It could of course have a role piloting one of the available Jubilees in a more eye-catching manner than Ian Riley's two Black 5s as a variation to having a box on the back. Range wouldn't be a problem given an attached water cart. Compounds can do 400 miles non stop on 6.5 tons!

 

The idea of painting the SECR Wainright D in BR lined black is very nearly blasphemy, and the act would be very nearly vandalism...
If you want to see a Smith/Derby type 3-cylinder compound 4-4-0 in action on the mainline, head straight for the RPSI website and look for the next available tour with 85 'Merlin', one of the finest machines running today.
If the NRM was looking to fill gaps which others won't be able to, and tell more of the story of steam before the Great War, a late 19th century/early 20th century passenger loco or tank loco in pre-grouping livery would be the place to go.
However I doubt this will happen as those locos would have more limited haulage capacity and potentially more questions about historic components.

 

Is there a list of NRM stock, to read to better answer question

 

If only there was!!!!

If you go on to the NRM website you will find http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/locomotivesandrollingstock For years I have been badgered two of the curators about the poor quality and inaccurate nature of this list. Although they except it is not fit for purpose it appears beyond the capabilities of anyone in the NRM to do something about it.

An internal more accurate straight forward listing exists. The most recent version I have been able to prize out of the NRM was dated 1st October 2014. More recent versions exist but blood and stones come into play trying to get hold of them. Why the latest version cannot be made available as a pdf on the website I don't know particularly as recently a number of items have moved location.

Clearly a problem in the past has been poor record keeping by the NRM regarding what is part of the National Collection and what is not although I believe things have now improved. It should also be remembered that the NRM owns locomotives and rolling stock that are not part of the National Collection as well as being responsible for the National Collection. Also a considerable number of items have been de-accessioned from the collection in recent years.

It is a pity that the NRM can't learn from the LTM Museum who make a much better job of it http://www.ltmcollection.org/vehicles/index.html once you have done a bit of clicking.

 

I'll email you the current list Peter, you only had to ask. You don't need to prise it out of me. Perhaps we need another cuppa soon.

As for the website, there's big moves afoot which will make the entire collection accessible, images, small objects, the lot.

As to what next? Nothing without a business case, plan, and a lot of money.

 

Do you (or @Anthony Coulls) want to expand on that? What is owned by the NRM, but not part of the national collection? (as an example, not necessarily an exhaustive list!) I always took them to be somewhat synonymous, i.e. the National Collection was in effect the totality of artefacts owned by the state, rather than private owners (or non-state public bodies, such as local councils). Is that not the case?

Tom

 

Does he mean NMSI rather than NRM? If that is the case, then almost all the items at MOSI are not part of the national collection.
NMSI-National Museums of Science and Industry
MOSI- Museum of Science and Industry (Manchester)

 

I'm sure Anthony will correct me if anything has changed but the following items of rolling stock I was told were considered as NRM Plant and were not / no longer part of the National Collection:-

Locomotives

BR Class 08 D4141 - 08911

BR Class 09 D4103 - 09015 - located at Wishaw and may have now been sold

BR Class 09 D4105 - 09017

Coaching Stock

SR BY 435 - ADB975672 (was part of National Collection (1994-7348)

BR BSK 35362 - Sold to Aln Valley Railway but not aware it has yet left York

BR BG 81025 - 84025

BR GUV 86831 - 93831 - 042188

Wagons

BR Milk Tank 42801 (was part of National Collection (1990 - 7364) recently moved to Washwood Heath so may have been sold

BR Ferry Wagon 200955

BR Freightliner Flat 601652

BR Flatrol 900402 (was part of National Collection (1978 - 7107)

BR Well Wagon 904697 - possibly now sold and awaiting removal

It should, as another poster has intimated be remembered that various items at York, Shildon and Manchester for that matter, form part of other collections. A lot of confusion has arisen over the years due to lists purporting to be of the 'National Collection' also containing 'plant' as well as items from other collections on long term loan.

 

Isn't the 4027 third party a former GWR director?850 no longer operational.

 

Any chance or sharing the list here?
I suspect only steam locos are relevant to this discussion.

 

Thanks Peter.

Tom

 

The NRM website shows 4027 as loan - Gloucestershire-Warwickshire Railway http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection...tem?objid=1978-7033&cat=steam&comp=All&ipp=96 However, it might be a mis-interpretation has got in somewhere and that is where it is located - was located - rather than who it was actually loaned to. So quite possible the loan arrangement is with a third party. Not a worry I suppose if things are progressing well and all parties are happy with the move. Perhaps someone can clarify. As far as I am aware the Gloucestershire-Warwickshire Railway continues to be the home of LMS 707111 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=6345 formerly part of the National Collection and GWR 56518 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=12552 that was once recorded as part of the National collection but never formerly accessioned. These presumably are well cared for at their present home.

 

Noting that BR Milk Tank 42801 is no longer at the NRM can anyone state what it's present status is ? I know someone who is keen to buy such a vehicle and it would be interesting to know both its whereabouts and availability for sale.

 

The issue here is that preservation has become more than just having engines in a collection. With time passing the issue is becoming what do we conserve, what do we store as preserved and what do we wish to keep operational.

The last category is easily understood with the most obvious example being 60103 Flying Scotsman. Here many people wish to see the engine kept operational and as such it will have had many parts replaced and changes made to keep it running. This is not the time to debate what changes have happened, merely acknowledge that they have, with the goal of engines such as Scotsman, being kept in steam and running.

However, preservation has become a large and general term. It encompasses everything including operational engines strictly speaking. Yet, we need to distinguish which engines we would like to preserve in good condition. Preservation here means that things can be changed, so as to keep its appearance or condition as best as possible, to give a view that otherwise wouldn't be possible. It also means that they are stored long term. Really, they are stored preserved engines and could be later decided to be conserved, made operational or kept as they are.

But beyond this wide ranging definition is conservation. Here, as time passes the genuine article is needed for future generations to have and enjoy. It means allowing as few changes as possible from a certain time and to keep the item in a genuine condition so that it becomes more special and original as other engines have parts changed or are conserved.

Its debateable which engines fall into which category, but now the three exist. I would venture that an engine like Mallard is now conserved. Yes it has steamed since its entry into preservation, but now there seems a need to keep it in its present condition and to recognise that this icon of steam is historically important to keep in its state today so as not to devalue its links to its ground breaking achievements further. It does mean that Mallard is essentially plinthed and will never run again.

Engines like Green Arrow are now stored preserved; kept in its present condition and if needed the cylinder that needs replacement could be conserved and removed, while the engine returned to being operational. Other stored preserved engines could be those like Duchess of Hamilton, that has had casing fitted to give the view of the engines original appearance. Winston Churchill is preserved as it was running for its infamous funeral train duty; although you could think it is now conserved.

It means that now the NRM needs to decide what is kept and for what purpose. It also gives strength to the view that the number of National Collection engines could be best kept at a few that were operational and thus don't detract from others being preserved or conserved. As those that would be good to keep operational in an overhaul que type system would be City of Truro, the Super-D, Lord Nelson, Scotsman and Cromwell, being one from the big four and one standard.

I think this will eventually become what preservation evolves into and decisions made will effect what categories engines become, having seen the trends involved. Time will tell how close I am to whether I am right on this after all...

 

There's certainly been plenty of whispers going about regards truro, "Apparently" the NRM haven't actually said their against it returning to traffic again. Rumoured to be in relatively half decent nick, brill loco although admittedly whilst it was at the lancs I felt sorry for the crew during winter as the cab is particularly open to the elements with only a tarp protecting the crew so wild to say the least!!!!!!

Other locos i'd personally like to see returned to use are:

6229 Duchess Of Hamilton
Super D 49395 another brill loco that seemed at home on the elr
4771 Green Arrow sadly rumour is the boiler's totally shot

Plus is 850 Lord Nelson still nrm owned or in private hands?