NYMR Loco news

If there aren't the passenger's to justify it and the resources to support it then an hourly service isn't needed except at peak times of the year.

Sawdust.

 

Agreed and understood. The question is whether the relationship between service and numbers is quite that simple, or whether a service reduction may also impact upon potential customers willingness to travel at all.

I don't envy those having to make those judgments.

 

The hourly timetable has only been run in the peak ("Gold" - Spring Bank Holiday week and summer English school holiday) since the 2nd platform opened at Whitby in 2014. Both the Off Peak ("Green") and Shoulder ("Red") timetables have gaps and are basically 6 departures from Pickering. There have been a lot of lightly used trains already dropped from the timetable over the years, some completely and other effectively replaced (in terms of overall mileage) by much better used services. The theoretical total steam mileage is similar to many years ago and I think actually lower than the pre-Whitby service peak. As with all railways, some trains run as much to get stock back for the next busy service, but again opening up the Whitby service has helped create flows in both directions at the same time of day.

I have always considered the need to make the fares good value by offering the opportunity for varied days out using the Rover tickets (which are basically all full-line Returns) is very important. As with all longer lines, the cost per mile may be lower than shorter lines but the absolute amount of the fare is higher.

It is all a compromise between service frequency and resources needed - and I have been heard in the past arguing for dropping poorly loaded trains and others have carried the day to keep service frequency. Even with gaps in the hourly departure pattern from the terminus stations, there are fewer occasions when there isn't a train in one direction from the passing places. Of course, many people who would like to visit heritage railways may not be used to following railway timetables, so suggesting itineraries may a good way of helping passengers to have a good day on the Railway without needing to run more trains than the overall numbers justify.

Work has already started on the 2017 timetable, and the resource levels needed are one of the key factors being considered.

Steven

 

I doubt many visitors would. Be concerned about the frequency, and as long as there was a train at a convenient time. They wouldn't expect it to be "on the hour" or hourly. As long as it was well publicised (website, brochures in holiday accommodation and at the stations) then people can plan their day around it.

It would also be interesting to see where passengers travel to/from. Do Whitby passengers always travel right through to Pickering? Would a Whitby-Goathland shuttle be sufficient to link the two tourist locations? I've often felt the NYMR had a rather rigid timetable which they struggled to achieve, both with timekeeping and locos throughout the season. I volunteered there years ago, and had 0-6-0 tank engines trying to run full-line services.

 

I knew I spoke too soon. Soon after my post 80072 had a migraine and needed a lie down in a dark shed. We see what Monday brings, but possibly no steam at all to Whitby and only two working steam. As I predicted, just as I organise my diary to get to Pickering it all goes wrong again. And the Gold timetable starts Saturday, although that isn't much different to Red so far as steam is concerned.

 

It is a good few years since we used 0-6-0 tank locos on the main service - over 30 solo, and at least 25 since Joem was providing a token steam presence with a Type 2 actually moving the train! (Something similar has been done with a Lambton more recently).

Based on figures from last Autumn, around 2/3 of passengers starting at Whitby purchase All Line tickets - i.e. to Pickering. The proportion of those starting at Pickering and buying Whitby tickets is similar, perhaps just slightly lower (as there are 2 "All Line" destinations from Pickering - Grosmont or Whitby) but certainly well over 50%. The strength of the market from Pickering to Whitby was the surprise from the trial services run in the early years of this century - your thoughts were exactly what the initial expectation was, but the full line market has proved much stronger. The 09:25 ex Pickering is one of the busiest Down trains of the day, with the 12:00 ex Pickering vying for that title! (Both are through trains to Whitby). The 2nd platform at whitby and expanded service has given better opportunities for a full line trip from Whitby and the market has responded to this.

This is not to say that a reasonable proportion of passengers don't break their journey at some point, because they do. The 12:00 ex Pickering is always at it fullest when it leaves Grosmont for Whitby, having picked up (and set down) passengers at intermediate stations who have travelled out on earlier trains. Having worked a lot of these trains in the past, I would say up to half of passengers break their journey in one direction, but probably only a small few in both.

Shuttle services have been looked at in detail by the Operating Department earlier this year and they concluded that they wouldn't work (and wouldn't reduce the resource - locomotives, sets of carriages and crews - requirements).

Steven

 

Interesting.

Looks like the NYMR is suffering from its own success, and there are few alternatives available. Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

When diesels replace unavailable steam locos, is there a noticeable drop in passengers/revenue?

 

Didn't 'Sapper' make an appearance during the santa season a few years ago- sure I have seen some pictures of it at Goathland somewhere?!

Chris

 

Santa trains aren't the main service and do not run the full length of the line.

Sawdust.

 

On individual days, it can be hard to judge, especially if it is a last minute replacement. I think the number of diesels out of wWhitby does have a more immediate and visible effect, perhaps because people haven't maybe travelled as far and hence are less likely to say "well, we are here now so may as well travel anyway" as day-tripers at Pickering.

It is the cumulative reputational damage which is seen as a definite effect, and the need to ensure steam locomotives on the services advertised for them is seen as paramount.

I once did ask a fellow guard who worked much more regularly than I whether he thought passengers would prefer a less frequent, all steam service or one with more trains but some diesel and he felt the latter but that is one view, albeit one I would respect from somebody who would make a genuine judgement. Part of the problem with diesel substitution is that often those working trains feel that the Railway isn't meeting passenger expectations, and this can in itself lead to the issue being more a greater one for passengers if profuse apologies are offered, yet some passengers would expect exactly such apologies - no win, unless you can provide the timetabled steam and avoid the issue!

Steven

(I once apologised for the train being diesel hauled, but added it was a Deltic. A lady looked out of the window at the passing huge plume of smoke and said "oh, I hadn't noticed it wasn't steam!")

 

I suspect understanding passenger motivations may be near impossible, undoubtedly there will be elements of disappointment or complaint when steam is not on offer or trains over crowded (see tripadvisor comments). Meanwhile people staying in the area may time their visits based on information available from the website about what is working. It would be interesting to know whether anybody has ever tried analysis of passenger figures (which seem to be regularly collected) against the weather and haulage. E.g. on cold or wet days do people travel back earlier whilst on sunny days everybody crowds the last train.

 

Hi,

Will 80136 (once completed) be a Whitby-able loco?

Thanks

Chris

 

I don't think anyone knows yet - the same question has been asked on the NYMR forum. The answer given there was that the owners are amenable in principle but the bunker requires modifications to an used part of the water space and they haven't yet been asked if they will agree to that. My opinion, for what its worth, is that the need to get it in traffic asap to replace 80072, which leaves around the end of June, is paramount and that "Whitby-isation" will probably be done next winter, if it is done at all.

 

Edit double post deleted

 

I would agree with these thoughts. Getting it out there as soon as possible has to be the priority.
Next week we have the gold timetable scheduled, we will be very lucky to get through the week without cancelling services as 5 locos are required!

 

Some years ago, I asked that we add a "Weather" column to the Daily Takings spreadsheet, to some amusement from the Finance Controller - I must admit pinching the idea from another railway! It had since proven that there is quite a strong link, but the effect it has can differ between Pickering and Whitby!

With a number of locos in use and planned diesel usage as well as unplanned, simply capturing that against takings might be harder but could be worth looking at. Does a single unplanned diesel trip count the same as using a diesel all day? Depending on when it is, in terms of effect on custom, if there is one, it could do!

Steven

 

Gold needs 4 steam and 1 diesel, so cancellations shouldn't be necessary - I hope that isn't "famous last words"!

Steven

 

The weather can differ between Whitby and Pickering too!

Sawdust.

 

I'd tend to agree with that, albeit as long as it's clearly advertised as such. If a passenger's expecting a diesel then it's not so bad as when one substitutes for steam.

 

80072 was out and about today, along with 63395. The N.R. registered locos (45428 & 76079) have been suffering from tube leakage in recent times. An interesting theory is emerging over this. The Railway has recently been suffering from coal with a high ash content and tube leakage has occurred on previous occasions when the coal has been poor. The theory is that the grate gets choked with ash and this causes significantly greater air to be drawn through the firehole cooling the tube ends. 45428 should be back out tomorrow to ease things.
S160 No.6046 should arrive in the next day or so to give a bit more relief although 80072 is coming to the end of its hire period. 80136's boiler passed its out of frames steam test the other day and work is ongoing to get it into traffic as soon as possible. The tanks and cab now sport full lining and lettering and look very smart.