Replica builds for heritage lines.

While a 2P is often known as not the best performer it's amazing how many people ask for us to build one when on the Patriot sales stand as a future project!

 

Although equally, since such a loco would only ever be for heritage line use, it might be easier to accept that leaving those areas as they are would be simpler and less costly in redesign effort and unlikely to be as problematic at 25mph as they would have been at 50 - 60mph.

Tom

 

The main problem with the 2Ps was the position of the piston valves - BELOW the cylinders, so steam travelling both to and from had to be squeezed past them. This meant it was impossible to work the engines hard, and one offshoot of this was their excellent maintenance and repair record; they simply didn't wear out and achieved very good mileages between works visits.

How this wonderful record would be sustained should their valve layout problem be solved is open to conjecture.

 

Not forgetting that a 2P could wear S&DJR livery

Dave

 

So could an original Johnson 4-4-0 - a much lovelier machine!

 

Johnson 0-4-4T? I suspect that it might have a hard time at Midsomer Norton though

 

Strangely Peter Smith recalls that the S&D men got just as good results from the MR 2Ps with their bigger wheels and lower pressure as the LMS standard 2Ps. I do agree though that the Johnson 4-4-0 is a real beauty, in fact I prefer them to the Spinners.

Dave

 

I'd also prefer a Johnson 3F 0-6-0

 

Aren't you all missing what might be the point? You need big locos to haul the gargantuan trains that promoters want to run. Therefore you should be looking at eminently practical locomotives like the LNER U1 or LMS (huge number)F. New builds presently underway or completed have been modified from the original designs in order to eliminate some less desirable traits of the priginal design. With either mainline Garratt, there's plenty of scope for the astute designer to improve on the design.

 

If there's to be a new-build mainline Garratt of any sort:
a) it's going to be a BIG project, costing lots and lots of money;
b) it may as well be a completely new design for express speeds, with wheels 6' 2" or larger, preferably ones for which a pattern already exists;
c) Something like 2-6-2 + 2-6-2 would be about right, the same total number of wheels as the P2 with its tender, but 12 of them coupled;
d) as a completely new design, it can be ever so gauge-friendly. (A major virtue of a Garratt is the low-slung boiler.)

Edit: I've just realised the biggest problem; choosing the colour.

 

Garratt's may be big & powerfull and able to run either direction, however that comes at a price. Garratts have the additional complication of having 2 of everything Mechanical, flexible pipe joints just to thick of a couple, and unless you can run big long trains there is no benefit in using such a huge Loco. How many Heritage lines (and mainline operators for that matter) are capable of running longer trains than they do now?

The title of the thread is "Replica Builds for heritage lines", so the conclusion I arrived at in post #141 and here is an explanation of how I arrived at it:
'Replica'' means it must be something that already exist's (or did).
I also made the assumption that it may not be funded by donations or enthusiasts but commercially (a business decision) or out of necessity (non availability of anything suitable), cause if growth continues all existing Locos may(?) be already in use,

So I:
Kept the choise simple ie: 2 Cylinders and all running gear outside, and of a relatively modern design.
Be user friendly, self cleaning smokebox, hopper ashpan, rocking grate, etc.
Capable of running both direction due to lack of turning facilities.
Be capable of hauling the largest Trains on the steepest grades, the NYMR have the steepest railway I am aware of and locos of power classification 4 seen to handle their trains fine from what I can see.

So once you taken all that into account there isn't much choice really, and the logical conclusion I reached is a BR Std 4 tank. It may not be a big Garratt or Express Loco but as the majority of passengers are Joe Public, they generally don't mind too much as long as there is a Steamer on the front.

 

Blame me for suggesting combining two threads with similar subjects: this one, which was primarily concerned with heritage lines but already straying beyond that, and another one that was covering both heritage and NR. They were combined under this title, which no longer reflects all the content.

 

You wouldn't get any support for a Standard 4, there are to many of them already, a Fowler 4 is a different matter though.

 

Actually for most (not all) tourist lines a 2MT 2-6-2T would do the business perfectly well despite what some would have you believe. Very economical as well.

PH

 

Somebody already did an improved version, they were called Southern Railway L1's!

I recall a conversation long ago with a good friend who was at Crewe, about the 2P's that were allocated at 5A. it went along the lines of;-
What did they use them for at Crewe North?
Decorative piloting but the blokes didn't like them at all.
Why was that?
Well you imagine standing on one of them doing 60 or 70 and looking back at a Big Lizzie trying to come over the tender at you!

Not much you can say about that really.
Bob

 

Surely the Standard 3 tank is the obvious choice in that the drawings, patterns and flanging blocks already exist or soon will - not to mention the expertise of the 82045 group. Why re-invent the wheel and incur all the extra costs? It's the perfect loco for most preserved lines.
Ray.

 

If every preserved line had the same locos and the same policy, how many people would bother to go to different lines, and how many would bother to revisit a line when one loco goes out of service and another one comes into service if they are all the same?

 

Exactly, something PH and others recommending batch building a whole load of 2MTs or 3MTs seem to forget. As I've said before, whilst joe public does account for most of the custom on the railway and thus day to day income, capital for projects like a newbuild are a lot more reliant on enthusiasts or "gricers" as PH likes to call them, and another BR std of which we have examples of if you want to see one (or will do soon) so what's the point in building another? These folk will want something new. That doesn't preclude them from choosing a design that will be practical, but dreaming of batch building 2MTs or 3MTs is as daft as dreaming for a newbuild garrat IMHO!

 

If Australian enthusiasts like NSWGR 3827 can have sensible attitudes, so can his British counterparts! (I hope). Who pays the bills? Groups of Shearings package holidaymakers and family groups on the one hand or spasmodic, capricious, gricers on the other. The latter may visit but not always actually travel.

Even "Steam Beano" is beginning to remark quite thoughtfully about the cost of fuelling steam locomotives. Should the future involve batch production of 45's or 2MT's to keep small and medium lines operating steam power, then so be it. The labour saving fitments, so rightly commended by NSWGR 3827 may make the latter more expensive to make but the said fittings are blessed by those who actually use them.

PH