46233 King's X - York 14/08/16

MellishR · 2016-08-14

作者 The Man: ↑

I think you would need the Starship Enterprise to do KX York in 4 hours.
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Today's scheduled timings for the Duchess are a lot slower than yesterday's scheduled times for Tornado over the same stretches (Kings Cross to Peterborough in the morning and Grantham to Kings Cross in the evening).

Although the Duchess has a heavier load (presuming the diesel to be a dead weight) it is still comfortably within the capacity of a Class 8P.

If four hours each way would have been too tight, what about four and a half? Five hours one way and more than six the other do seem excessive.

Dobbs0054 · 2016-08-14

作者 Big Al: ↑

Don't go there!
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DO go there!!!

green five · 2016-08-14

作者 The Man: ↑

I think you would need the Starship Enterprise to do KX York in 4 hours. Yesterday I was on 5043. We took 156 minutes to do 121 miles from Droitwich to Hereford. I would defy anybody to do it quicker. We were 4" late from Droitwich, and about the same at Hereford. All very hard running. For a Steam Loco to maintain an average of 60 mph is very difficult, and was exceptional in steam days. (Cheltenham Flyer, Bristolian, Coronation etc. all limited loads)
So: KX - York 188 miles, say 190 mins. Two water stops 1 of 15", the other slightly longer. I suspect water and then pathing. there were 14" worth of station stops (promoters request) As we all know, a 2" station stop actually equates to more then double that in scheduled time (Braking and accelerating.)
So 190" (running) 30" Station stops, 51" water. That comes to 271". Or 4'51". The 60mph average doesn't take into account departure from KX or the run in to York, or any gauging restrictions en route. The only way to improve the timings would be to knock out stops, but then people cant get on or off. I admit that the second water stop could have been reduced by 21", but that would probably need Mr Virgin EC to cancel or amend a train or two. (They're not keen on that for some reason).
As said before. Be grateful for what you have got, and don't chase utopian dreams.
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If Steam Dreams used the Starship Enterprise it would probably be destroyed by Aliens in the first 20 minutes of the journey and then the passengers would have to wait for the Klingon Thunder-warbird diesel to rescue them

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

Dobbs0054 · 2016-08-14

作者 Be grateful for what you have got:

Fine. But be HONEST about what you are selling. Put the diesel requirements on the description of the tour in equal font and sze to the rest of the information. If you have nothing to fear then you need not hide anything.
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Paul42 · 2016-08-14

作者 The Man: ↑

I think you would need the Starship Enterprise to do KX York in 4 hours. Yesterday I was on 5043. We took 156 minutes to do 121 miles from Droitwich to Hereford. I would defy anybody to do it quicker. We were 4" late from Droitwich, and about the same at Hereford. All very hard running. For a Steam Loco to maintain an average of 60 mph is very difficult, and was exceptional in steam days. (Cheltenham Flyer, Bristolian, Coronation etc. all limited loads)
So: KX - York 188 miles, say 190 mins. Two water stops 1 of 15", the other slightly longer. I suspect water and then pathing. there were 14" worth of station stops (promoters request) As we all know, a 2" station stop actually equates to more then double that in scheduled time (Braking and accelerating.)
So 190" (running) 30" Station stops, 51" water. That comes to 271". Or 4'51". The 60mph average doesn't take into account departure from KX or the run in to York, or any gauging restrictions en route. The only way to improve the timings would be to knock out stops, but then people cant get on or off. I admit that the second water stop could have been reduced by 21", but that would probably need Mr Virgin EC to cancel or amend a train or two. (They're not keen on that for some reason).
As said before. Be grateful for what you have got, and don't chase utopian dreams.
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Andy

Don was refering to these runs like this : -

http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t08/t0705a.htm
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t08/t0706a.htm
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t09/t0516a.htm
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t09/t0926b.htm

Some of which do have less pickups, and would have greater input than a standard trip to get better timings.

Paul

john34077 · 2016-08-14

Video of the St Neots stops today. If anyone recognises the driver and fireman in the evening footage, please let me know and I will add to the Youtube description.

John

JDTTRAINS · 2016-08-14

She seemed to either stall or stop just outside of Sandy earlier this evening. Anyone know what this was down too? She accelerated through the station with the diesel just ticking over with no push!

JDTTRAINS · 2016-08-14

作者 john34077: ↑

If anyone recognises the driver and fireman in the evening footage, please let me know and I will add to the Youtube description.
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Driver was Mick Rawling, with Jim Clarke acting as TI. Wasn't sure about the fireman.

Kylchap · 2016-08-14

Cruising nicely through Tallington on the return trip about 30 late. Cylinder drain cock stuck open again.

Enterprise · 2016-08-15

作者 Paul42: ↑

Andy

Don was refering to these runs like this : -

http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t08/t0705a.htm
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t08/t0706a.htm
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t09/t0516a.htm
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t09/t0926b.htm

Some of which do have less pickups, and would have greater input than a standard trip to get better timings.

Paul
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I was on those and others with similar timings, and, of course, the exceptional Top Gear run with Tornado http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t09/t0425c.htm.
I accept that it is more difficult now but I think the real reason for the slower schedules is a change of attitude.

maureen · 2016-08-15

作者 hatherton hall: ↑

Now now Adrian. As a senior West Coast man, there is no need to have a pop at the NP posters. They are made up of a wide range of types from the fun loving (me) to the ultra serious who cannot accept the odd pop at why the smelly is on the back (not me). As they say up north, NOWT AS QUEER AS FOLK - especially on NP, it seems. But ultimately, there is room for all of us. Queer or otherwise.

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His name is Andy not Adrian and he has as much right as anyone else on here to have his say and tell the real facts as it is, as Andy said it was vacuum stock and if there was a steam failure where are you going to get a vacuum braked diesel from if you haven't got it with you and and if the train had sat down on the ECML because of a steam failure with no back up plan then that would be the end of steam on the ECML for sure regardless of the TOC or the steam loco. As for the timings and length of the trip it is NR that issues the timings and not Andy.

Big Al · 2016-08-15

It may appear that there is a bit of 'smoke and mirrors' going on here over what is happening and that is including the comment about the time at the destination to service the train and the need for a diesel to help. Viewed dispassionately, without any knowledge of the relative complexity of movements at York compared with Carlisle, say, a quick turn around and shunt at Carlisle seems possible in as little as two hours although three hours at York seems the norm and Sunday's turn around was less than that. Notice that the train did leave late coming home for whatever reason. But this was Sunday and trains leaving London before 9 am and returning much later than 11pm are not helpful to those passengers who need connections. Believe me, I know! But there is no doubt that the extended pathing could have been more helpful and the fact that the late start from York was recouped is an example of that. But I presume that you get what you get from NR.

I think the more serious issue, and it is not good news for Steam Dreams, assuming they are bothered, is that the stock they use is vacuum brake only. For all the reasons that @The Man has already said, this appears to have become a factor that WCRC will not now ignore when they plan how they will manage Steam Dreams's charters. That is a change of policy, it seems, and those passengers who are bothered by such things will have to take this on board.

The Man · 2016-08-15

作者 hatherton hall: ↑

Now now Adrian. As a senior West Coast man, there is no need to have a pop at the NP posters. They are made up of a wide range of types from the fun loving (me) to the ultra serious who cannot accept the odd pop at why the smelly is on the back (not me). As they say up north, NOWT AS QUEER AS FOLK - especially on NP, it seems. But ultimately, there is room for all of us. Queer or otherwise.

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WTF is Adrian?

Spamcan81 · 2016-08-15

作者 maureen: ↑

His name is Andy not Adrian and he has as much right as anyone else on here to have his say and tell the real facts as it is, as Andy said it was vacuum stock and if there was a steam failure where are you going to get a vacuum braked diesel from if you haven't got it with you and and if the train had sat down on the ECML because of a steam failure with no back up plan then that would be the end of steam on the ECML for sure regardless of the TOC or the steam loco. As for the timings and length of the trip it is NR that issues the timings and not Andy.
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Is 46233 air braked and the Duchy stock air braked also?

hatherton hall · 2016-08-15

作者 The Man: ↑

WTF is Adrian?
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Ha ha!! Oooops. Slip of the fingers on the keyboard Andy. You, Mr. T are man of great integrity and provider of valuable information on this great website.

JDTTRAINS · 2016-08-15

'The Cathedrals Express', filmed at Lindsells (Biggs.), Peterborough crossing the River Nene, and Sandy.

malc · 2016-08-15

作者 Big Al: ↑

Viewed dispassionately, without any knowledge of the relative complexity of movements at York compared with Carlisle, say, a quick turn around and shunt at Carlisle seems possible in as little as two hours although three hours at York seems the norm
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I wonder whether the number of through platforms at Carlisle and York has a factor in this. Carlisle only has three, so the signallers will be pretty keen to get the train out of the way, whereas York has five and seems to give movements to/from Holgate the lowest of priorities.

guycarr360 · 2016-08-15

It will not be long before runs on the ECML will be air only in my view.

Depending on a 40 odd year old loco to be the rescue, seems to eventually ask for trouble.

Either that, or the TOC of choice for ECML work has to move away from the main player, as they have access to many loco's that can act as thunderbird locos, in the event of failure.

Just a thought....

RalphW · 2016-08-15

作者 malc: ↑

I wonder whether the number of through platforms at Carlisle and York has a factor in this. Carlisle only has three, so the signallers will be pretty keen to get the train out of the way, whereas York has five and seems to give movements to/from Holgate the lowest of priorities.
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Some Saturday charters to Carlisle end up staying in the platform whilst others are moved to the siding to the west of platform 1. This movement can be made a lot quicker that the move to Holgate. Signallers at York also have more traffic to deal with than at Carlisle, hence as Big Al says Carlisle can always manage a quicker turn round.

gricerdon · 2016-08-15

作者 Yorkshire Exile: ↑

Tornado could do it .
If memory serves we were very close on one occasion when given the option to get out of Grantham DGL to York in a rush or wait a couple of hours because of service train issues. We appeared to be the only train on time and the TI (bless him!) took option one.
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Tornado did do it. 19.09.10 and 26.09. 10 times were 4 hrs 2 mins up and 4 hrs 8 mins back. I was on one of these and time was kept. Also quite a few times in 4 hrs 40ish both ways.. Plus 60019 13.11. 10 was given 4 hrs 24 up and 4 hrs 27 back. Where there's a will there's a way. Its a question of decent intermediate times and a couple of brief water stops. Whilst I agree we must be thankful for what we have got there is no need for complacency.

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46233 King's X - York 14/08/16

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