If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

What was the past really like?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by paulhitch, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,739
    Likes Received:
    28,674
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think you need to read a bit more - the hydraulic experiment was not just driven by the WR, but appears to have been a deliberate comparison between diesel hydraulic and diesel electric. The results are a little ambiguous, but the key element in the demise of the hydraulics was the otherwise universal availability of the diesel electrics as utilisation improved and loco numbers could be held down.

    Some might also take issue with your views on aesthetics, especially if you are criticising the Westerms.
     
    Black Jim likes this.
  2. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,872
    Likes Received:
    5,564
    Not really utilisation, more a collapse in traffic which meant that BR had too many locos, plus on a smaller scale the introduction of HSTs; and the WCML electrification which released the class 50s. The lack of ETH capability on the hydraulics also didn't help their case as steam heating was eliminated.
     
    Black Jim and 35B like this.
  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    28,739
    Likes Received:
    28,674
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    For the network as a whole, 'value' is about the cost and utilisation of the plant you have. That was for a business that employed thousands, and was relied upon by millions. The willingness of a few to work steam does not show anything about the many who would have been required to keep steam going in the long term.

    Where I agree with you is that the combination of the BR Standards, Modernisation Plan and Beeching was wasteful. Personally, I would suggest that with hindsight the primary mistake was in building the Standards, and failing to recognise the way that the world was changing.
     
  4. Victor

    Victor Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    14,528
    Likes Received:
    9,199
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    DEWSBURY West Yorkshire
    [​IMG]
     
    Black Jim and Martin Perry like this.
  5. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Then the paper catches fire....
     
  6. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,872
    Likes Received:
    5,564
    What railway is that? Strange uniform for a cleaner/fireman.
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    12,734
    Likes Received:
    11,849
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Not if you know what you are doing.
     
    Black Jim likes this.
  8. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    1,240
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Stratford-upon-Avon or in a brake KD to BH
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Not sure what you mean re fuel. Gas turbines run on botom end products such as kerosine and diesel / gas oil. The aviation industry use kerosine and the electricity industry, whilst predominately gas fired are often run GTs on diesel.Both kerrosine and diesel are widely available
     
  9. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    761
    Location:
    Devon
    I seem to recall that much experimentation was carried out trying to get one of the gas turbines (I can't remember which) to run on cheap low grade oil but that while it ran well enough on high grade fuel (aviation fuel?) the turbine suffered problems or damage with low grade fuel as used in the oil fired steam locos. There seemed to be the idea that they would only be worth continuing with if they could use cheaper fuel than the more economical, though at that time much less powerful, diesels.
     
  10. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,072
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I f the Westerns were produced today they would be recognised as aesthetic masterpieces. Can no enterprising manufacturer fit modern technology in a Western shell?
     
  11. 8126

    8126 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2014
    Messages:
    831
    Likes Received:
    976
    Gender:
    Male
    If the Union Pacific had run their gas turbines on kerosene or diesel they'd have had a lot less trouble with them (the same applied to 18000). However, those fuels were only used for warming up, most of the time they ran on heavy Bunker C (and later a slightly different heavy fuel oil) because it was the only way their extravagant fuel consumption was cost effective. As a result, they got a lot of soot in the combustion and thus faster degradation of the turbine blades, thus increasing maintenance costs. Bunker C became more expensive due to new uses from the plastic industry and improved cracking techniques allowing it to be converted to (more expensive) lighter fuel grades, so the economic justification for the turbines went away.

    Their retirement from Union Pacific service also coincides pretty closely with the appearance on the scene of >5000hp single unit diesels....
     
    burmister and LesterBrown like this.
  12. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,872
    Likes Received:
    5,564
    I think it is the crash safety requirements that inhibit design. The first generation locks and HST don't offer the driver much in the way of protection.
     
  13. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    761
    Location:
    Devon
    The Fell Diesel looks as if it would have been safe enough!
     
  14. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    761
    Location:
    Devon
    Wasn't that a scene from "The Titfield Thunderbolt"?
     
  15. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    7,897
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Mainly because it rarely moved? :)
    Is the crash protection of a Class 66 noticeably better than older locos?
     
  16. burmister

    burmister Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    284
    Likes Received:
    292
    My experience as well. The black oils became increasingly poor as refineries invested in new refining methods. We ended up using stuff only just better than Atompsheric residue with SGs near as dam it 1 which played havoc with the centrifuges used to spin out fines and water for consumption in large 2 stroke engines. Also involved in trials of Orimulsion fuel oil in water tube boilers, never seen such quick build up of carbon heaps on the tubes and it wore the fuel pumps and burner nozzle tips out in just a few days.
     
  17. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    7,897
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Overhauling B&W fuel injectors became more of a case of throwing most of the parts away and replacing them with new towards the end of my time at sea, down to fuel 'quality'.
     
  18. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,872
    Likes Received:
    5,564
    I believe so based on what I have read, but I'm no expert.
     
  19. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    1,304
    The GTEL 3rd generation appears to be a very expensive way to obtain 8,500hp. If the 4000 class had been built to the best steam standards available at the time they should have been capable of sustaining 13,000ihp.
    I recall seeing a reference to the end of GW1. This was said to come to a close, ceasefire situation, because of the problems maintaining fuel supplies to the US MBTs. These are gas turbine powered, you might have thought that someone might have been aware of railway experience with the type. But apparently not, the Challenger 2 did not present such concern being powered by a Perkins Diesel engine.
    You have to admire US mechanical design though and their ability to produce depot systems. It was a pity that we used our budget less than wisely. But how could you introduce facilities of the quality of those used by the N&W without having locomotives designed to benefit from such systems?
    If the standard designs had been restricted to a mixed traffic 2-8-2 and a modest 2-6-0/2-6-2T then we might have been able to concentrate less on the breed and more on obtaining the best out of what we had.
    Did anyone conciously choose to have more engines rather than better shed facilities? Quality costs, no doubt about it, but the lesson from the experience of the bulk of the rest of the world was that the better the design and build of your engine the fewer of them you would need but a quick turnaround was vital. Hence the depot quality both in material design and in systems used.
    We did what we did, producing machines that had no chance of meeting the standards to be found elsewhere and associated working conditions that fell far below the best to be found in areas of best practice. Sad really.
     
    Black Jim likes this.
  20. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    7,897
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The US tanks could run on diesel fuel. Their Gas Turbines are 'multi fuel'.
    Gas turbines see a lot of successful use in industry ... Also powering quite a few airliners :)
     

Share This Page