A1SLT Mk3 rake

I love the fact that 'Heritage Rolling Stock' is the only obvious place to start this thread! However, the Mk3s are now as old as some Mk1s were when they first entered preservation so maybe they are 'heritage' vehicles now! Although some debate has been held on the Tornado and P2 threads, I though I'd throw in Belmond's vision of what can be done with a Mk3..... inspiration for the Trust?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/d...on-board-the-grand-hibernian-luxurious-train/
Foxy

 

Thanks for starting the thread.
Must say that im thoroughly disappointed that you didn't include a Livery poll.
Several intriguing considerations this project might include...
The location of the depot ...
How much might it cost... and who's paying ?
Retention Tanks ?(Does that Irish train have retention Tanks ?)
Additional Loco water storage ?
Consist ;
'Streamlined' observation Car ?
Support /Utility/ Generator vehicle ?
The last one is the most intriguing to me as I don't recall anything in the Mark 3 range with the kind of utility that the older stock has...
Does having a pair of decent sized doors cut in the side compromise the Monocoque construction ?
Is there anything in the Mark3 based Multiple units that would be eminently convertible ?
Will there be a screen in each carriage featuring live footplate action ? or are windows the best option...

 

I believe one of the centre car bodyshells from the wessex electric units used the design of an Irish mk3 service car of some description.

Sawdust.

 

The video contained in this report shows some of the construction details, opening windows, double doors and other useful stuff:
http://www.itv.com/news/utv/2016-07-27/antrim-firm-completes-fit-out-of-irelands-orient-express/
Foxy

 

I initially recoiled at the thought of "butchering Mk3's", however having thought about it for a while, in the future stock such as this may be the only suitable coaches for mainline tours. So really it's a very forward thinking proposal for the A1 folks that may become a pioneering development for continuing mainline steam. I look forward to seeing the results.

Sent from my HTC Desire 620 using Tapatalk

 

Given my comments in the past on the condition of Railtour & Heritage stock, this is excellent news

 

Why would you need to cut new doorways into the vehicles? Yes you might have to modify the existing ones to make them power operated - but Chiltern managed that quite successfully without compromising structural integrity.

As for retention tanks - easy, the 442s had them and the HSTs Scotrail are planning to take on will need them fitted as well. In fact he biggest issue with them with respect to charter operators is simply the logistics and costs around emptying them (particularly if you don't want to pay a franchised TOC to service the rake at one of their establishments.

The windows - fitting hopper style ones is again easy enough, although that might have implications on how the air con system is configured.

 

Not vehicles, a vehicle i.e.the 'support coach' where having an open utility area with good wide opening doors giving direct access tends to be useful. There isn't a Mk 3 equivalent to a Brake Coach
Suppose a Mark 2 could be found which wouldn't look too out of place ( e.g the Royal train...)

 

A MK 2 BSO then.

 

Precisely, are there many of these left ?

 

According to VCT there is around 40 not including the ones in service with DRS or any other TOC that still operates mark 2s, a lot look like they need restoration however some are mainline with west coast railways.

 

What an interesting proposal from the A1 Trust to acquire and operate a rake of Mk 3 coaches. Given the Trust’s professional expertise, this has presumably been thought through. But it would be interesting to find out more about their reasoning.

The modern features of Mk 3s (like central door locking, and heating that works reliably) plus the apparently quite good condition of many examples could be attractive. But for steam excursions, Mk 3s appear to have some disadvantages. The sealed windows mean no loco sound and smell (especially as modern safety rules prevent enthusiasts from using windows in vestibules). The modern design and decor (inside and out) of these coaches may also put some people off; any “retro” paint schemes won’t please some, as the result would be inauthentic.

A fundamental question is how much would a Mk 3 rake cost, both initially to acquire and modify for heritage charter use, and subsequently to keep in good condition. How do long-term repair costs and difficulty for the Mk 3 structure compare with those for earlier designs? (I have seen a quite tatty Mk 3 on a small heritage line that had acquired one).

How would the electrical power demand to operate the aircon, heating, etc in a Mk 3 rake be met? Is it inevitable that such trains must always include a diesel loco, or a van with a big, noisy and heavy generator?

If new opening windows are to be provided, would this be incompatible with retaining the aircon?

Retention tank toilets are another feature that will make Network Rail content, but impose an ongoing extra cost on the operator.

And finally - would Mk 3s fit, in all the destinations that steam charters are likely to visit?

It is a concern that the cost of modifying and using a Mk 3 rake - given the points above - could be significant and would have to be passed on in fares. The present situation is that enthusiasts in standard class already seem to be in danger of being priced out of excursions, resulting in trainloads of mainly well-heeled folk in dining class. Is that the only market that the A1 Trust’s new train would be aimed at?

 

While there clearly are issues over using MK3's there must be significant issues over the continuing operation of MK1's on the National Network, including age, safety and condition. I'm not sure that there is an easy solution, I might go towards refurbishing ETH MK2 a-c but presumably this has been considered

 

mk3 brake vehicle, the 442's power cars were brake vehicles, an add on to from a batch of irish vehicles i believe its possible to gut a vehicle and do conversion into a generator car as the irish build were for generator cars , are they thinking on obtaining scrap 442 trailor cars? they are coming off lease to Gatwick express and are expected to go for scrap they are wired to the sounthern emu set up, so may be not compatible to be of use as hauled stock for mainline toc's plus they all have short swing bogies so would be ok to run loco hauled over southern routes ,and elsewhere

 

mmm

 

It also cost them £250k a coach as they had to do the doors individually. However, the method to be used for the HSTs involves lopping each end off and installing new ends with the powered doors, which should be cheaper.

 

Yes, I wonder what the possibilities of using class 442 trailers as loco hauled stock would be? If you are already talking of major alterations to mk3 stock with regard to doors and having a generator car included then I would imaging that treating class 442 stock could be feasible. Heating, lighting and even air con could be provided for by the generator - I imagine that they are air braked in some form or other, and they already have power doors.

You could even turn a driving car into an observation saloon...

Yours WIBN

Steve B

 

yes they are air braked, electro pneumatic as per the rest of the 400 seires stock i would imagine as they used much of the 4 rep availible systems when they were withdrawn to provide the traction motors and equipment needed for the new trains, these (the 442's) were the first air conditioned emus i believe as there was no Mk2 derived emu built

 

Do electro pneumatically braked units also have a "normal" air brake as well. I would have thought that they would in order for them to be hauled "off the juice". If so, then you'd have most of the systems in place.

Steve B

 

Well the 4tc's seemed to manage ok going from loco hauled to unit hauled so i guess the answer has to be yes