Is there such a thing as too many heritage railways?

May I remind you that was what various Governments have tried to do since the 1960s on the national network - and failed!

Railways are an expensive thing to run - particularly passenger ones, which is why most that survive (as opposed to freight only ones) all require some form of Government subsidy (even if its just buying new trains every so often rather than paying a proportion of daily running costs) to keep going.

Now while Heritage Railways don't have a subsidy - the usually do have supporters groups that bring in extra revenue which effectively subsidises the railway - e.g. overhauling locomotives or rolling stock for example so clear parallels are there to be seen between the two.

 

yeah I know all that, what I'm thinking of is what measures lines can take if the volunteers run short and the legacies don't roll in. I'm not suggesting they do it a la Beeching, I'm wondering if they can do it if they have to one day.

 

Well I would have thought its pretty obvious - if the situation goes on for too long then the railway will quickly end up in debit due to having to borrow more and more to pay for people to do the jobs volunteers used to do or legacies used to fund. If it goes on too long then the bank will get fed up and start proceedings to get their money back the same way they do for any other business.

People need to remember that Heritage Railways are BUSINESSES not the playthings of old men/women. As with any business, not being able to adapt and change to market forces prevailing at any given time is fatal.

 

One of my experiences from the 1970s was at the age of 14 being given a shovel and being asked to look after a Terrier locos fire and water levels at the Bluebell. Not sure that would happen now.

 

This question has raised some scathing responses, but we've already seen it happen on the Weardale and Dartmoor Railways. They eliminated loss-making regular passenger services, and focused on premium products like the Polar Express trains.

In the earlier days of preservation some lines overstretched themselves and had to cut some services to achieve sustainability. KWVR and West Somerset come to mind.

I wonder if a struggling line like the Talyllyn might be able to scale back to become more sustainable (I know there's another thread for Talyllyn finances). They are a bit remote for Polar Express and not geared up for Valentine Dining trains, but maybe they could offer premium priced vintage trains and cut out their regular services? They would be operating far fewer services on fewer days, carrying less passengers too, but charging much more for the authentic Victorian experience. Operation and maintenance costs would be lower, as a smaller fleet would be needed, and the track would have less wear and tear.

I don't think it's daft to talk about cutting back, but it might be more positive to talk about a railway re-inventing itself.

 

One issue of course is that in the 'good old days' any child that was capable of walking & potty trained could join in (OK, possibly an exaggeration) now however - and I'm not saying that its necessarily a bad thing there are H&S/Child Protection issues

 

But the problem with 'cutting back' is that you are tackling probably at most 1/3 of your costs, and quite possibly even less with smaller locos on narrow gauge.

There are massive costs involved in keeping the infrastructure of a line in good order for any type of level of services - if the line is keeping on top of them. Again, I have heard it said 'too much is being spent on track and bridges' in the last 12 months, which I find a very dangerous sentiment - as Railtrack demonstrated!

As I have stressed, that doesn't mean I advocate running as many trains as you can but without trains, you can't carry passengers and they won't then pay you money called 'fares'! It is a matter of sensibly balancing service level, cost of provision, demand and hence marketing and many, often conflicting issues come into play. If any line 'struggling' financially is also not spending on track and structures, then they really are in deep trouble!

In the specific case of the Talyllyn, questions have been asked about whether catering profits from the enforced refreshment stop justify additional costs of needing 2 locos and sets for even the off-peak service, the Management of the line are seeking to gently boost usage - presumably within existing capacity and it has been suggested that the marketing may need to improve its reach and impact.

Simply increasing fares for the same product won't do it - the present level of prices sounds rather high as it is. If premium products can be added that passengers will consider are worth the premium (and that includes meaning that they can be delivered to the expected standard at a price which still makes an enhanced contribution to fixed costs), fine, but narrow gauge lines will always find dining a challenge and actually making money from 'wine and dine' requires quite a significant level of activity to justify the capital costs of providing the premium product. The more you charge, the more perfect the service people will expect and hence any premium service or priced up operation carries reputational risk - I believe that some TripAdvisor comments on Polar Express and other family events have been less than enthusiastic, and each Christmas seems to bring a new 'winter wonderland rip off' story from outside the world of preserved railways!

Steven

 

there's another aspect to having two trains running. One train operations are vastly inferior in terms of spectacle. With two trains there is far more for the passenger to see and enjoy, encouraging return visits. One train operations result in long periods with nothing happening.
Before this thread I hadn't actually realised that there was a deliberate break at Aberg.!

 

Similar break at Pontsticill. Allows time to visit the café, museum and childrens playground. And photograph the engine.

The only other railway I can remember with an artificial break is the Southern Fuegian Railway in Argentina. For no obvious reason.

Some ELR services seem to have a long timetabled stop at Ramsbottom, presumably for operational reasons.

 

Although there is a separate thread for the Talyllyn Railway, but there are two issues of general interest;
1. They do run a genuine Victorian Train on certain days, which offer photographic opportunities and a generally enhanced experience - seems to be well patronised, but by enthusiasts rather than families, who would find the extra cost too much.
2. The refreshment stop at Abergynolwyn offers the chance for coffee and cakes/ ice-cream, which makes up for there being no refreshment facilities on the train. A bit like New Zealand in years gone by. I always enjoy the break, and usually end up buying souvenirs/ books/ calendars as well as food, so this probably helps the economy.

John

 

Various gala's I've been to at different railways, the footplate crews have either been my age (give or take a few years) or younger. Isn't Mr Meanley Jr a similar age to myself? There are youngsters there who are coming through and I shouldn't say we should be complacent, but we shouldn't be to gloomy and despondent either.

 

The Stoomtram Hoorn-Medemblik in The Netherlands has an enforced stop at a small wayside station half way. As well as a snack bar, this station features a small, free museum and it provides enough time for a look around as well as an ice cream. There's also a toilet; some (although I don't know whether all) the carriages are WC-free, so this is a welcome break.

 

A few comments from the sharp end here in Wirksworth:

• Remember that there is no God-given limit to the number of heritage lines
• Every scheme will fail or succeed on its own individual merits
• There are very few cases of lines benefitting from 'deep pockets' - a phrase that has been used several times in this thread. Funding comes from having a compelling case, a good means of broadcasting that case and firm evidence of the ability to deliver.
• The presence of competing lines nearby is likely to be of benefit, not a problem: a cluster of attractions makes visits more attractive for visitors.

Kind regards,

Neil

 

On the subject of mid-journey breaks:
I don't know how the Vivarais in France works now but back in the late 90s it had a substantial break half way up to replenish the tanks on the engine, which having flogged itself half to death to get that far up then proceeded to flog itself the other half on the rest of the journey. The break at the top was then about 2 hours or more, to the benefit of a restaurant up the road but it seemed a bit excessive if you just wanted a sandwich.
Around the same era the Chinnon-Richeleu line also had a break at the middle station, where cheese and wine were served to the passengers in the station building. This was not my thing either, to be honest! Unlike the Vivarais this line (now closed I believe) was a fairly dull trundle.
Another French railway I went on around that time didn't even bother to run a train before lunch.

 

Going back to Neil's post I remember having a trip organised by the Wolverhampton branch of the SVR in 1997 it involved a trip along the canal alongside the CVR, then a trip at Foxfield. There were a few seniors who said afterwards said something like 'ooh when that Churnet Valley reopen's that's the end for Foxfield' but we've seen the opposite I think, Foxfield have reopend to the colliery and that's there USP , an ex Colliery railway they do that bloody well. And then the CVR , does a superb recreation of a a secondary route in the 50's all they need is a somthing like a Fowler tank (in a few years time maybe), it does a fantastic job of a 1950's time warp. In a few years time when Mr Wilson gets his 8F up an running you could do a vintage coach trip involving a trip to Foxfield for the industrial bit , an afternoon behind the 8F, a bit like what Mr Peters would do.

 

something not touched on is Tenure. This hardly affects lines who own their own freehold, but could be a timebomb for others.

 

Good point. All those seemingly endless 25-year leases come round awful quick!

 

I don't have a strong view on numbers but I have always disliked railways from nowhere to nowhere via nowhere. A connection at least at one end to the national system (not necessarily physical, proximity works) is highly desirable and I have tried to support those railways that have this or are trying to achieve it. It would be iniquitous to name names but members will all recognise lines that exist in isolation with no ambition to link to anywhere and are largely for their society members to amuse themselves. It is also unfortunate that some projects have been started by a group who have fallen out with the management of an existing heritage railway.

 

Interesting post. I absolutely agree with the first two points, and wouldn't know about the third.

Not so sure about the last point. I have occasionally combined two heritage attractions in one day, e.g.

Tanfield + Bowes
Barrow Hill + Matlock
Telford + Amerton

Although I'm more likely to combine the preserved railway with my fetish for non-league football, e.g,

Shildon + Bishop Auckland FC
ELR + FC United
and even Wirksworth + Mickleover Sports

However, most visitors are families and they are more likely to look for a good day out in one place than rush around a cluster of preservation sites. In my experience, wives and children have a finite tolerance for riding trains.

It seems to me that the down sides are potentially more serious than the benefits, i.e. competition for visitors, members and volunteers. In your area there are Ecclesbourne Valley, Peak Rail, Crich, Butterley and Steeple Grange in a tight cluster. Do you really think that your visitor numbers are higher because of the competition, and not lower?

 

I think there is a "cluster effect" - not necessarily over one day, but maybe over a few days. For example, the presence of several narrow gauge railways in Wales makes the area appealing for a prolonged stay, whereas maybe some people wouldn't visit if there was only single railway. We recently spent a week's holiday in the north east, and part of the reason was the ability to visit a cluster of attractions - NRM, NYMR, Beamish etc - whereas we may not have visited had there only been one of those in the area.

The other issue is that having a certain critical mass of railways nationwide helps support a supply chain that may not be viable if there were too few railways. For example, doing a reductio ad absurdum - suppose there was only single heritage railway in the country. At face value that might suggest that that railway would be in a strong position to monopolise visitors to heritage railways. But actually you might then find that the market would be too small for anyone to import coal, which would stop the railway in its tracks. In repairs, the railway might find that it couldn't get wheels re-tyred, because it was unviable for anyone to offer that service; nor would anyone be prepared to make new tyres in sizes not used on the mainline railway. Having a certain number of nearby railways can help with interchange of skills and facilities, patterns, drawings and so on.

Which isn't to say that invariably there is always space for a new railway. But it is worth considering that in general, the "competition" for any given railway is more likely the choice a potential customer makes between visiting a railway or going somewhere else (sports event, shopping centre, stately home, staying at home to watch TV etc) rather than making a choice between visiting railway A or railway B.

Tom