Tornado to haul certain timetabled trains on S&C: Feb 14-16

I can understand why these trips are reserved seat but I don't think there is any requirement in the T&Cs to actually use it, Jeremy Corbyn certainly didn't and is it enforceable? I don't think in this day and age railway staff can physically manhandle anyone. Some years ago I was confronted by a station official at Vauxhall, I was at the end of the platform to photograph 34067, I had purchased a return ticket to Waterloo to gain access to the station so I had a right to be there. He pointed out I was not on the right platform and asked me to move which I politely declined to do. He said something about getting the BT police and went. 34067 appeared and I left without seeing my friend again and no doubt the BT police had better things to do with their time. A totally unecessary confrontation.

We seem to have sleepwalked into a situation where we are subjected to petty rules that don't seem to apply in any other country and it needs to be challenged. What's the next step having to put you hand up to the guard and say please sir may I go to the toilet? You say that passengers pleasure is not what the railway is about but listening to the loco working hard is exactly what a steam trip is all about. As far as scheduled services are concerned I'm not really bothered, apart from London Underground and an occasional trip on the Jacobite, the last time I travelled by train was about seven years ago for work and due to NR incompetence I had to complete the last part of the journey by taxi. The modern railway, now little more than a high speed guided busway, holds no interest for me and is far to expensive and inconvenient to use as a mode of transport.

 

Guard ? what guard...if Southern and the other penny pinching guided bus companies get their way.

 

Couldn't agree more Al. A couple of us are going and we fall squarely into the Enthusiast bracket. Don't like 'coffin' Mk2 stock and it will be pot luck as on every charter train if we get milepost seats, but what's not to like? It's a Plandampf. We have a Class 8 Pacific locomotive making six northbound climbs of the long drag from a standing start at Settle with probably load 11 equivalent for £11.20 a train with a Senior Railcard. Even the six tender first southound journeys have merit with a standing start from Kirkby Stephen. I'm looking forward to seeing what Tornado will be able to do around Mallerstang and onward to the summit; might get 40 ish bearing in mind how good the engine was on the way to Brora. This is something I never thought I'd see and it is what it is.

 

An interesting aside is that Northern will not allow standing passengers on what is a Service Train. Can they please apply this policy across their network? Oh wait, they do not have enough stock to accommodate regular passengers.

How will the regular passengers feel if they are denied access to their normal service train as it is overwhelmed by enthusiasts?

 

I still havent got an explanation of how they will cater for passengers who turn up at intermediate stations, possibly with no knowledge of whats going on. I'm thinking of some poor old dear who might be going from say Kirkby Stephen to Appleby on a regular journey to be told sorry you can't get on

 

And there is the delicious irony that Tornado is actually NEWER than most of the stock that Northern Heritage Railways serve up to the public.

 

Not being funny or critical, but I would be delighted to know that would be happening on a regular basis. In fact, it would be something I would want to witness.

Cheers,

Alan

 

Its a fair point but maybe we are looking at this from a very different perspective to that of the regular customer. We have an interest in the novelty of Tornado on the S&C. The little old dear who is off to town for the day just wants to get on the service train they usually take. Many of this generation do not use social media and will probably not even notice any posters at stations.

Seems it has been raised and the regular customers look secondary. PR disaster??? From facebook...

Brian Clarke What if we are regular commuters on this line... are we sidelined for the gronks that just want a cheap steam train ride? I have a normal ticket to travel this line... It looks like it's going to be mayhem... I hope you gave organised crowd control people...
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Northern This is true, there are reservations left on some services, though others went much quicker.
The services are intended for local people, as way of saying thank you for their patience while the line has been closed following the landslip at Eden Brows in February 2016.
"}' data-testid="ufi_reply_like_link">Like · Reply · Yesterday at 10:55

 

Which is one reason why I've decided not to try to make these trips, along with the state of my diary.


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There is not a "no standing ban"; there is a "standing ban".

 

Seems a bit naïve of Northern to be making this statement. Surely they must know that the reservations are being snapped up by enthusiasts from far and wide.

Before anyone starts, I'm not having a go at Northern. On balance, I think this is a positive initiative. Just not convinced they have thought through the consequences for normal users of the service, or really targeted the event at local people.

 

Dobbs didn't say. You have lifted the quote from a facebook response by Northern. I get in enough trouble on here

 

I reckon some people will get off at KS and walk down the hill for lunch instead of joining the scrum at Appleby. Also nobody is going to drive to KS on the offchance of a 15 min ride. So if the squire and his lady want to have a ride they will get on. If there is a problem it will be at Settle. But there must be a fair chance Dales weather will come to the rescue.

 

However the train Mr Corbyn was travelling did not have a no standing rule - as such of course they couldn't 'make Mr Corbyn take a seat. Try the same stunt on Eurostar or a French TGV service and the outcome would be different as both services DEMAND you have a reserved seat before departure and sit in it for the duration of the journey (obvious exceptions of visiting the toilet / bar / chatting with otherwise seated friends etc.)

I think some people are having trouble with understanding a few key concepts here.

(1) Having a ticket does not give the holder the right to disobey any reasonable instruction of a railway official. As such if the train is advertised as a non standing one and you refuse to comply with that restriction when asked then the staff are perfectly within their rights to chuck you off at the next station.

(2) On ordinary scheduled services in the UK standing is permitted - the onus being for rain operators to advertise in advance if it is not - which is precisely what Northern have done.

(3) All UK trains on the NR network must be fitted with secondary door locking

(4) Placing any part of your body or a recording object out of an open window is not permitted.

(5) On Charter trains due to the secondary door locking being a simple manually operated bolt on the inside of the door, plus the tendency of the enthusiast fraternity not to be able to resist sticking body parts / recording devices outside of the opening windows used to access the outside door handles, a ban on standing has been the industry way of complying with the ORR rules as pertaining to the national network.

(6) TOCS have a duty under H&S legislation to address all the risks. As such Northern are duty bound to address to address the extra risks arising from the use of a steam loco and coaching stock fitted with the very basic method of secondary door locking described above. As with charter operators this means imposing a 'no standing' ban. Such an action is perfectly allowable in law and by the regulations governing the sale of ordinary rail tickets.

 

I don't want to prolong this to long but I still haven't heard how railway staff can 'chuck me off' train if I refuse to cooperate and how is hanging a recording microphone out of a window dangerous.
I must be very fortunate to have survived for nearly seven decades including 12 years commuting on Southern slam door EMUs often with a lot more standing passengers than seated, window hanging on more steam hauled trains than I can remember and an entire youth spent shed bashing! What's more I never personally heard of anyone being killed or maimed doing the same things. The problem is the country has seen fit to start a whole new parasite industry employing people to regulate and interfere in certain aspects of life and they will carry doing so, no one will willingly make themselves redundant. Things can only get worse.

 

There was a chap killed on a North Wales Coast Express several years ago due to window hanging.

 

The answer to that may be found in Bye-Law 12 and the powers conferred in Bye-Law 24.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

 

There was indeed Alan.