Value of steam locomotives

For reasons I can't fathom, in the last few weeks I've been asked twice to formally value industrial steam locomotives by people. I've declined to do this but it has set me pondering on this subject. There is no Glass's Guide to refer to and, at the end of the day, any figure is dependent on how much someone is prepared to pay and how much the other party is prepared to sell for. FWIW, I've put down my thoughts on this very subjective topic, as follows:

Industrial
Small 0-4-0 tank out of service and requiring substantial work - £6-10K
Small 0-4-0 tank in running condition with a long boiler ticket - £25-30K
0-4-0 tank out of service and requiring substantial work - £10-15K
0-4-0 tank in running condition with a long boiler ticket - £35-40K
Small 0-6-0 tank out of service and requiring substantial work - £20-25K
Small 0-6-0 tank in running condition with a long boiler ticket - £50-60K
Large 0-6-0 tank out of service and requiring substantial work - £45-50K
Large 0-6-0 tank in running condition with a long boiler ticket - £100-120K

Ex BR
0-6-0 tank out of service and requiring substantial work - £80-100K
0-6-0 tank in running condition with a long boiler ticket - £200-250K
Larger Passenger tank out of service and requiring substantial work - £160-200K
Larger Passenger tank in running condition with a long boiler ticket - £450-600K
Class 5/6 out of service and requiring substantial work - £200-250K
Class 5/6 in running condition with a long boiler ticket - £600-800K

I've left off the larger passenger locos because, to a large extent, it can be name your price for the stars. A Bulleid is going to be nearer a class 5 as they are quite common.

These are only my thoughts and boiler condition is going to be paramount in varying the price, as is completeness. A main line ticket will also add to value. I'm sure that I will be shot down in flames over my figures but I'm happy to sit back and see what others think. Discuss

 

That gives me some hope that I may be able to realise my dream of having my own locomotive one day!

Chris

 

Buying one is the easy bit! As I know....

 

What's this valuation for I suppose would be the big question. Goodness knows I know little enough about this, but it seems to me there must be precious few locomotives that genuinely pay their way in any kind of real business sense. Aren't most of them ultimately money pits sustained by deep pockets, gifts and volunteers with earnings only going partway to pay the bills over the heavy general to next heavy general cycle?

If one is seeking what might be called a rational value wouldn't there be a need to start with the scrap value and then increment from there? I mean, isn't scrap value what you can guarantee to get for every locomotive even if its so wrecked that it would cost multiples of any conceivable value to put it in any kind of satisfactory order? As for alternatives, how are they held on the books? How are insurance valuations arrived at?

 

Well, as well as being asked to value a couple of locos, I've recently had a long conversation on the subject with a loss adjuster for insurance purposes. Until the arrival of Tornado, nobody really knew how much it would cost to build a steam loco in the 21st century. Now we have a bit more idea. However, that's not what we are talking about. The loss adjuster commented that you wouldn't be able to afford the premiums if you insured on that basis and the most realistic valuation is what you have lost in financial terms. In other words, the equivalent to the re-sale value of your car. In terms of industrial loco valuations (because that's what we were looking at) he thought my figures were a realistic stab. However, this figure may not cover some quite possible scenarios (i.e. a smashed cylinder and damaged rods/valve gear) so you might want to up your insurance value to cover this, but not an 'as new' replacement value. The LA considered this to be a sensible approach.
You are right in your statement that the base price is the loco's scrap value but, like anything, you are expecting more than that if you sell it on as an item for possible re-use and not so many tons of iron and copper.
You are also right in your comment that they are basically money pits. You'll no doubt note that the increase in value from demic to full working order is unlikely to equal the cost of achieving this target.

 

Well that's always the case isn't it!
I've just been hurting my head trying to see if I can think of a logical basis for calculating value, but I suspect when it comes down to it all that can be said is "what have similar items changed hands for recently?"

 

Is it painted (preferably BR) green? Does it have name plates? If so add a quarter million pounds to the value!

 

buying one is easy, it's sneaking it past the missus I would struggle with.
How much could you reasonably generate in hire fees per year? Would need to be a big wedge to pay for a 10 year overhaul

 

Is it a more famous class member than other survivors? In the unlikely event that all four UK based A4s came to market, I'd wager that 4468 would fetch the most money.

 

The value of a locomotive hmm minimum scrap value, maximum whatever someone wants to pay for it. Then of course there is the insurance value but it is unlikely that a locomotive will ever be completely written off as stated previously. Also you can probably determine the value if the loco is owned by a company by seeing what the company declare as assets etc.
My fear is that at some point in the future there may be a case where the value is determined by the legal profession. Just assume that some point in the past that some railway enthusiast purchased a decent amount of shares in a locomotive, that particular person departs this mortal coil leaving their estate to a person who doesn't appreciate railways but sees the potential to make a few bob from the shares. That could be one interesting debate.

Cheers John

 

Be interesting to see how much 60532 Blue Peter was sold for, would think it would attract quite a premium.

 

Was the reported sale price for 45231 last year in the region of £450k? 44806 went for similar a year or so before?
Not many of the rare breeds left in private individual or small group hands these days.

 

Don't know but these figures would fit my guidelines/guess as neither had a long boiler ticket.

 

A bit of research revealed 5231 went for 475k in October 2015, 4806 400k in 2014. Fits with your profiles spot on.
75029 went for 450k in 2004 and I think 76079 was 650k in 2010?
Just shows what an unpredictable market it is. Arguably medium sized locos are more valuable outside the elite level of mainline.