Should the T3 be Steamed Poll

Indeed, but first start with a carriage works.

PH

 

Could put the carriage work out to tender. That's what the NNR did with the Quad-Arts. You don't have to do the work yourself to qualify for a lottery grant.

 

Yes but first you have to come to terms with manufacturing wooden mouldings, annual re-varnishings and so-on. No-one ever said it was easy and if the skills are not there, they will have to be learned. No excuse for quasi main line trains of Mk1s on branch lines though.

PH

 

Contradicting yourself there surely? In one breath the LSWR train is verging on WIBN but in the next it's "no excuse for MK.1s on branch lines." So do you suggest the Swanage - and others - suspend operations until they have a pre grouping train? One could also say there's no excuse for Austerities on passenger trains on some railways.

 

The reason for the widespread use of Mark 1s on many railways is simply that, at the time the railway was getting going, there was no other rolling stock available. A few of the early Heritage lines like the Severn Valley, Bluebell and KWVR were established early enough to be able to get some pre-nationalisation coaches but all ones after this had to use Mark 1s.

Most pre nationalisation coaches had been withdrawn by the late 60s and I have always thought that a Mark 1, well restored and in an authentic livery like maroon, Southern green, WR chocolate/cream and, yes, blue/grey looks good. They are nice inside, wood panelling, and are now sufficiently different to the plasticky looking modern trains on todays railway to be of interest.

 

At the end of the day a railway needs something in which passengers can travel. Pre-BR stock is always a joy to experience but drawing on what you say above, not all railways are in a position to run rakes of these. It takes time to restore these vehicles and that has to be done alongside maintaining the running fleet. So until such time as they can assemble a rake or two of pre-1948 stock, these lines will have to run with what they've got and that means Mk.1 stock for many of them. Paul should think himself lucky that he's involved with the IoWSR, a line that never did receive post nationalisation passenger stock so they were off to a running start where older stock was concerned.

 

And, if you do assemble a rake of pre Nationalisation or pre grouping coaches, I would still run Mark 1s or 2s alongside them so as not to cause excessive wear and tear on your older coaches. The IOW Railway never had any newer vehicles due to severe loading gauge restrictions

 

Quite so plus the fact that railway history didn't stop the day before the first Mk.1 appeared.

 

I think the thing is how much more of an attraction the loco will be if it is restored to working order rather than left as a static exhibit. Like it or not, railway preservation is a branch of the entertainment industry and has to attract the public, rather than just enthusiasts.

If a loco is just stuffed and mounted the reaction will be "nice, but Id like to see it run" or "doesn't run, not bothered" whereas if it were to pull into Swanage, either in LSWR livery, hauling pre nationalisation coaches or Southern green, hauling green mark 1s (either suits me) shrouded in steam the reaction will be "Wow, what a fantastic machine!" Also, any locos which have not run for years tend to become forgotten locos in preservation, but returning them to steam immediately puts them into the forefront, the LNWR Super D is an example.

Shoot me down if you want, but I personally, would like the locos at the NRM rotated round heritage railways and, if at all possible, all steamed. Why not? I would like the D class and Gladstone running at the Bluebell, the E4 at the NNR, the L & Y 2-4-2 tank at the ELR etc

(goes and gets tin hat on and hides!)

 

Gets my vote. That's what I like about the Shuttleworth Collection, if it can be restored to working order it will be at some stage.

 

Which four LSWR 6-wheelers are you referring to? I'm not well up on LSWR matters at all so I had a look on the VCT survey site and there is rather a long list; filter it by 'Swanage' and there are only five matches:
733 - inspection saloon ("the bug") - part body, in garden of adjacent guest house, so presumably not part of Swanage Railway's collection.
1512 - 6w type SZ (5 second class compartments), body only, b.1891
911 - 6w type TZ (6 third class compartments), body only, b.1890
74 - 'Ironclad' bogie type TK b.1923, stored off site
49 - 6w type CZ (5 compartments but I can't tell from the photo what the mix of 1st/2nd/3rd is), body only, b.1891.

So that's only three 6-wheelers, no brake coach listed, and what's the fourth one? Is one missing off VCT?

And why stop at four anyway? There are a number of other vehicles which might be suitable:
5498 - 4w luggage van (on its wheels) at Bluebell Railway - b.1920 so a bit modern but would look the part, maybe a loan deal would get it restored?
25 - 6w 1st/3rd saloon, body only, b.1885 - Bluebell Railway
Unknown number - 5 compartment 3rd b.1886 body only located in Exeter - owner "intends to restore" but you know, make them an offer? (http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=15606)
375 - 6w type CZ (5 compartment 1st/3rd) body only b.1884 - Netherbury, Dorset
126 - 4w family saloon body only b.1876 - Netherbury, Dorset
100 - 6w type TZ (6 compartment 3rd) body only b.1884 - Newton Abbot (actually sounds somewhat damaged)
465 - brake composite body only - location not known
5025 - 4w luggage van (on its wheels) at Quainton - b.1917. Same story as 5498 really.
Unknown number - 6w 3rd body only - Sellindge b.1879-1890. (Could this be the fourth one referred to?)
Unknown nummber - 4w luggage van body only - Sellindge
Unknown number - brake 3rd - St Germans, Cornwall
1353 - 4w luggage van on reproduced (non operational) underframe - St Germans, Cornwall
10 - 6w state saloon body only b.1877 - Stoborough, Dorset, but stated as possibly for Swanage Railway (so is this the fourth one?)
Unknown number - 5 compartment 3rd, and brake 3rd, forming a bungalow in Wool, Dorset (http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=5872, http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=5871)
899 - 5 compartment 3rd, Wool, Dorset (http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=15358)

I guess a fair few of those aren't going to be available any time soon but there are potentially enough vehicles there for a seriously long vintage train of 4/6 wheelers, or even two trains. Probably something that is not possible with many pre-grouping companies.

 

Playing the player rather than the ball again. after misinterpreting what was said.

Four old carriages, without underframes are going to take a considerable time to restore to an operable condition even if started tomorrow with a fully experienced team. Mk.1 carriages did actually run on the Swanage line before it shut. I just remember these but they were hauled by appropriate sized tank locomotives and the only thing "main line" about them was that they were attached to main line services at Wareham.

PH

 

An excellent idea. So long as they run as parts of the National Collection.


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In an ideal world, yes every railway should be able to re create its past, an 4mt on green Mk1,s, or a Bulleid set at Swanage, or a LSWR push-pull set with a M7 , who can say they would not like that, but we have to be practical ,we are in the entertainment industry, and to some that means a large named engine, on a longer rake than what would have been provided for in pre closure days, except for when a direct service in the case of the Swanage branch, ,or re creating a diverted Bournemouth train in the case of the MHR.
Eventually, hopefully a suitable rake will be restored to run behind 563, but in the meanwhile lets wait, see what the plans are, see what does need doing, and back their appeals for help, both practical and financial.

 

In contrast I would use the Mk. 1s as little as possible!

If we must be specific about the I.O.W., then I gather they had their own prospect of a Mk.1 style "Quick Fix". This involved, apparently, a quantity of electric emu vehicles which were air braked already. Fortunately someone came up with the idea of rescuing grounded carriage bodies dotted around the I.O.W. and mounting them on P.M.V. underframes of which there was then a good supply. A few bogie underframes were purchased when they came available. It has taken a long time to do eight vehicles but with the great advantage of an early start for the task.

A quick look at admirable Post 71 above shows an almost universal absence of underframes. I suspect brand new running gear will have to be constructed if they are ever to return to service. Perhaps we are stuck with boring Mk. !s after all.

PH

 

Playing the victim again I see.
You make contradictory statements so don't be surprised if people pick you up on them.

 

these coaches once restored would in effect almost be as good as new, new underframes, means just routine inspections, any metal supports replaced, or re enforced all wood remade, rot cut out, compare this with a 70 year old Mk 1 that as had nothing as major as what is a complete rebuild, so i would say a restored vintage coach may actually need less ongoing maintanance, as long as it is looked after and kept under cover when not in use.

 

As I said before, play the argument, not the person. You are at it again.

PH

 

While I would be better to have LSWR vehicles behind the T3 if it ever steams, this may well be quite a tall order, however if you want to recreate the general experience of - say a pre WW1 train then there must be a reasonable number of vehicles of suitable vintage available even if they are not LSWR

 

Surely before there is any thought about steaming the loco, or which carriages it should haul, the number one priority for funding must be building undercover storage so it can be put on display without degrading? The answer given to @Spamcan81 from the NRM suggested three possible locations where it might be stored - one of which is already full and the other two are not accessible to the public.

Tom