Why weren't the Standards standard?

Seconded, very interesting thread. On the Southern, I would imagine that the emphasis was on electrification and new steam construction kept to a minimum, until Bulleids arrival. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, the only new designs introduced by Maunsell were the Schools, Nelsons and Z class, the Uand N classes were SECR designs and the N15/S15s were LSWR designs, the W class was a derivative of the N class.

Edit, sorry forgot the Q class. How could I, the Southern,s Derby 4!

 

I'd say that MellishR confirmed, albeit unintentionally my views on GWR standardisation, which largely IS the reason for the time taken, and the matter to which we are never to mind why has been explained by Wiliamfj2, so it's all clear now.

 

I don't understand why you're citing me. I made essentially the same point as Miff.

Every one of the new build or rebuild projects has the same constraints. The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust has an especially good management setup and income streams, but even they are still needing to appeal for more money to pay for Tornado's tender and construction of the P2.

 

That's the part of your posting that I was referring to, which, admittedly unintentionally agrees with my original post regarding Swindon standardisation, which IN MY VIEW was no better and no worse than anywhere else, HAD it been better than anywhere else, then, allowing for the manufacture of new driving wheels the Lady of Legend project would have been little more involved than any other Barry Island Hall class restoration. Remember that Swindon Standardisation was often quoted (along with the farcical story of the re-build of Saint Martin to the prototype Hall class) as the reason for the project in the first place. I stand by Williamfj2 in his reasoning for the support that Tornado enjoys.

 

If you say so I agree with William but I still have no idea what your comparison with Tornado was meant to illustrate.

 

Are you being serious?

 

Yes.

 

I think what we have learned is that if you are essentially an artisan group constructing individual components from scratch, using a combination of traditional and modern engineering techniques and without the full organisation of a massive railway workshop behind you, then fund raising ability may be a more important determinant on the speed of a project than standardisation

The relative speed of completion of "Tornado" and "Lady of Legend" says precisely nothing about the virtues or otherwise of standardised components in vast industrial concerns decades ago.

Tom

 

I agree with Tom, I said something similar in my earlier post.

 

Please elaborate. In what respect(s) are you suggesting Swindon standardisation could have been better than it was, and how would that have expedited the Lady of Legend project?

 

As I've already posted, IN MY VIEW Swindon standardisation was no better and no worse than anywhere else, that's it, I'm not saying that there are ways in which it could have been better, or indeed worse, it was as standard as standard was in those days, It's just that some wonderful great mystical thing has been made out of it by followers of the Great Western Railway, it was what heralded in the 'Saint' project, which as I have previously posted was made out to be Nothing That Swindon Wasn't Doing Every Day, which is something which you yourself have since contradicted, Just accept it, it was just as good and just as poor as everybody else's.

By contrast, the A1 project started with NO preconceived ideas about being able to use/re-use existing components, and has proved successful by effectively BEING PREPARED to manufacture or manage the manufacture of any component that was required.

As a final point, because I don't want it to be to much of a shock for followers of The Great Western Railway, I'll say it carefully, but water wasn't invented just so G.J. Churchward would have something to walk on.

 

Water was invented so Churchward could boil it, and boil it very well he did.

 

So before Churchward there was Nothing..................................... OOH ERR!

 

So GJ was a tea boy then.

 

I'm sure he made a damn fine brew!

Several different flavours in fact - but they all looked the same.

 

Yes you may be right, we've had a good discussion in this thread on how Swindon practices suited the GWR but wouldn't necessarily have succeeded elsewhere.

That's where your comparison fails. It was always known the Saint would need many new parts, including driving wheels. The main reason for the slow progress is simply that for a long time the GWS had many other projects with higher priority for funding and labour. So it had to wait its turn. By contrast the A1 Trust was formed to fund and build one project and nothing else (at least until they'd finished) and did that very successfully.

Quite right. Churchward wasn't yet born at the time water was invented - Brunel must have had someone else in mind.

 

OK chaps but the Handbags down. Here is some middle ground.
The GWR standard component policy was very good. It enabled them to have an organised refurbishment program for components which we're common to a number of Locomotives which coupled with robust designs and precision assembly meant their Locos were in pretty fine fettle most of the time and they could be effectively and quickly serviced when they were not. Undoubtedly a system such as this resists change and newer improved versions of components or even whole locomotives may have been subject to limiting criteria. Other companies did this as well, but perhaps not as systematically

The Saint Project was no doubt considered more attractive and eminently feasible because of the availability of major 'donor' components resulting from the GWR way of doing things. Without which its progress would have been slower, or perhaps not considered to be feasible. The relative success and speed of the Tornado Project ( which did take approx. 20 years) has more to do with the appeal of a missing class of 8P locomotive from an under represented big four company than any form or lack of of standardisation. Consider that the Kings had all been scrapped - isn't it likely that as a project it would have outstripped the Saint, not withstanding the need for a new boiler ?

I would like to have a Standard 2-8-2 built to the pre 9F design (yes, sigh, we all know , groan) but as it would have to be an entirely new build without even a detail drawing, the lottery win to enable that would be in a different league to a similar less good 'conversion' of a 9f. The former might actually catch the imagination of a few and get a bit of support, many would see the latter as whimsy or even vandalism...

 

I can't think of an example where GW locomotives were held back by the need to use standard components - the evidence suggests the opposite. eg the 47XX 2-8-0 was intended to use a Std 1 boiler - when that didn't give the required power Swindon introduced a new boiler. Perhaps on another railway they would have struggled on with an undersized boiler.

Standard components were not frozen - they evolved over time - Collett made many significant changes in detail design. Hence the low incidence of hot boxes on the GW.

One advantage of standardisation that I think hasn't been mentioned is it leads to more efficient operation - eg once a fireman learnt to fire a Std 1 boiler - it didn't matter whether he was on a 28XX, a 29XX, a 40XX, a 49XX or a 68XX. Also in an emergency being in a loco with a std cab layout means more likely of getting to the right control quickly - in the dark or when the footplate is full of steam or flame.

 

Of course you can't.... you have been Swindonised!

Never said didn't evolve, but may have been subject to limiting criteria.
The standard layout and pretty much standard shape of firebox must have helped the crews...but made operating an Alien Loco. distressing...

 

That's where your comparison fails. It was always known the Saint would need many new parts, including driving wheels..[/QUOTE]


I'll concede with the driving wheels, but that is stating the obvious, the fact is that the GWS hid behind Swindon Standardisation, the alleged re-build of St Martin and 'The Sort of Thing That Swindon Was Doing Everyday' right from the start (1974) just out of interest, how much of Maindy Hall remains in Lady of Legend in essentially unaltered condition? (I'm not considering restored/reconditioned parts as 'altered')