35018 British India Line

Really don't care what colour she is.
I'm really looking forward to the chance of travelling on one of the first trains hauled by the loco since 196?

A "new" Merchant Navy in 2017 brilliant !!!

 

Especially if she is just turned out on the dalesman without prior notice, as a last minute change of loco especially if it happened to be around the 9th July, just take off those blodwin nameplates, put back the MN supports, paint 35018 on the cab sides leave her in plain black,

 

1964. Withdrawn from Nine Elms in August. Ironically, four of the seven MNs withdrawn in 1964 are still with us (Although in the case of 35025, only just!) whereas 35028 is the sole survivor of those engines which put up such memorable performances in the final few months leading up to July 9th 1967.

 

You have identified her one of the absurdities of the movement and I suspect the fact that there is more to many comments than meets the eye.

As you rightly say many trains trade on the heritage ambiance of the journey and thus for those travelling (and thus paying the bills for the operators) they have considerably more engagement with the rolling stock with a Mk1 giving a passable representation of the days of travelling by steam with the top light open and soot landing on the table.

Mr Smith paints his loco a certain colour and there is uproar, the A1ST state that they are putting together a rake of Mk3 stock which will be air cons with sealed windows and thus frankly anything could be on the front when they are in motion and there is considerably less froth.

The A1ST and Mr Smith would not be doing it if they thought it would affect the marketability of their product to the vast majority of travellers - passengers pay the bills and if they are happy that is all that matters really!

 

The peculiarity is that by common consent the loco livery does not influence custom so there is no benefit in avoiding historical accuracy. Alienating some enthusiasts on the other hand could negatively impact because they might not generate custom if positive word of mouth is lost.
As has been said, owners choice, owners cost, owners loss. Pointless and avoidable.

 

But, as I have said before, this again is the view point that enthusiasts always look backwards. Its 2017, and as a result the engine is operating in another chapter of its history - thus it can be in any colour that suits. WCRC here are going for something slightly different - being (whats most likely) the engine lined out in BR Black. Its still a nod to the past. The engine will be lined out in a scheme that fits the previous BR layout - and I'm saying this as previously Galatea did her test runs in the livery colour she was to carry, before then being lined out and put into traffic. Looking at the paint Id say the same is happening again.

However, the real issue is that being Black doesn't stand out as much. If the engine were lined in blue it would still be seen by the general public as a nice engine done in a scheme that was historically accurate. The other strand to this is that as a Southern engine there's plenty of others in an accurate scheme, so 35018 being Black could be done as theres others that are in an accurate scheme to compare against. You can easily come up with reasons for and against. People who travel, just want to be hauled by steam, for it to look the part and work to get them to their destination. Not one member of the travelling general public will have complained over Galateas adoption of something similar to a BR-Midland maroon scheme - instead the comments will have been that it looks nice, looks authentic and they had a nice day out.

Only enthusiasts get so wound up over historical accuracies because they remember what has gone before and would like to see things as they remember. Its a powerful and emotive response, especially when engines have a reputation. If 60009 were painted into BR Black lined out I would think the situation would be much louder, its just academic in nature that the idea of authenticity verses adaptation really plays out. If some were so against it as to boycott WCRC trains hauled by a Black 35015 - I doubt anyone would actually notice the difference in loadings, that's not pointless and avoidable if it makes not the blindest bit of difference. It also explains why WCRC adopt the Duke of Wellingtons mindset, while adapting it for their own ends - their attitude being, "Paint it and be damned." There are still plenty of people that want to go on a mainline trainride and they will still enjoy the day out. For every one or two that notices the livery is inaccurate, there will be another that thinks its all historically correct - but the main point is that people remember the day out and a ride on the train and what colour it is barely even hints at being a factor. Tell them its black instead of green, and they would probably think "Oh that's nice, something different and modern for it."



For my own model railway layout on the exhibition circuit I have got a fleet of engines done out in Darlington Green. An A1 60164 Northern Star, an A2 60540 Orpheus and an L4 (adapted L1) 68703. They come with a rake of Mk1 stock in NER maroon, done with white window surrounds. BR motifs and lining styles adorn both engine and stock. The same conversations over its authenticity get played out. Some think its accurate, some remember seeing it through Doncaster in 1964, some notice its not real, some think its being built.

But looking at the picture, it looks the part. If it did exist it would bring joy to people that enjoyed their tour and day out. They would remember the train ride, the journey, the destination. The experience the whole day makes up for it. That would be the engine that did it in 2017 and they would go and tell their friends about the nice all round day trip.

That's the travellers choice, their cost and their gain. They know whats on offer and are happy to book and travel. WCRC are happy to run a fleet fitted out in a manner that they think will satisfy the travelling public and how they do it is their choice, their cost their gain too.

 

It will be a matter of supreme indifference I daresay even if they took the slightest interest in NP froth.

 

Either do things historically correct or choose something different but, whichever, do it well. As I said upthread, gash versions of pseudo BR liveries are neither one thing nor the other, leaving little to admire. If 35018 gets BR black as a final livery let us hope it is in authentic style albeit not quite proper for the loco. The finish is the public display of professional pride in machine so it matters to that extent at least.

 

Perhaps because the A1 is not strictly part of national heritage, yet, whereas the stuff owned and operated out of Carnforth undeniably is?

 

It would be illuminating to find out the ages of those who don't care about historical accuracy and those who do. Are most of the Don't Cares, too young to recall steam days and the Do Cares mostly old enough to remember.

If so, it could be interesting in about 20 years from now, when the steam generations have all been withdrawn from service. Will fictional liveries predominate, or will accuracy take on a new importance?

Diesel fans are mostly younger and, don't seem too bothered about livery issues, unless I'm reading the wrong magazines. Of course there is a lot more choice available. Green, blue, large logo, NSE, Inter City, Railfreight, Sectors, EWS and many others.

 

Diesel fans not bothered about liveries Just as obsessive, if not more so, than the steam fans.

There's an interesting point about whether preservation is about recreation of a past that some people remember, as they remember it - a strong theme in comments about liveries - or whether it is about the objects and their operation, with paint a secondary consideration. I suspect that the bias will always be in favour of recreating the past, as people try to recreate what they've previously seen in photographs, or have buried in the recesses of their memories.

 

My experience is that you get froth when things are stirred too vigorously ...

Tom

 

Do you get froth when you stir paint too vigorously?

 

To me the most relevant thing is that the finish is befitting the heritage of the artefact and done to a high quality, whether it is historically perfect or not. Most steam enthusiasts are probably traditionalists at heart so their default might be authenticity. I am open minded to variations of atypical but otherwise authentic styles applied to a high standard.
As an aside, CRRES has a deservedly good reputation for paintwork and excellent facilities too by all accounts.

 

If 35018 can come anywhere near to achieving the high standards set by 35028, the livery debate will soon be superseded by more worthwhile comments about the engine! Just look at the froth about 60103's livery before it steamed - and BR green is, after all, an authentic livery for the class. Even on NP, who cares now? Perhaps someone with more time on their hands than me might care to scroll backwards through the 6,684 posts in the Flying Scotsman thread and let us all know the number and the date of the last posting to moan about its livery.

(Having said all this, I'd still prefer BR green on 35018, but it's not my engine, so who cares?)

 

Not really, but 35011 will definitely look good like this (all right, its 35017 but it illustrates the shape and livery which the 35011 group may well have upon completion of the project). Now that's well worth supporting in my view.

 

I would bet that this sort of rubbish is on the daily bulletin board at Carnforth. Always good for a laugh..
It can't only be me who looks a bit further than a coat of paint. I see thousands of engineering man hours, I see the results of skilled mens endeavours, I see somebody's money (a lot of it), and I'm grateful.
Stuff the paint.