The last pre-grouping express class?

Something in another thread, regarding the cascading of older classes down to secondary services while newer replacements were scrapped, got me pondering this question. What was the last active pre-grouping express class in BR service?

I was guessing the T9 class, but if you don't count 30120 (which was effectively preserved in service up to 1963) then the next survivor is 30287, withdrawn in August 1961. It turns out that 31067 of the ex-SECR E1 class made it to November 1961 and at present I can't find anything that lasted longer.

The criteria are simple but a bit subjective in some cases - the loco in question has to have been built pre-grouping to count and has to have been a proper express class. I know some mixed traffic and goods classes went on a lot longer.

Heavy (and accountancy) rebuilds, such as Castles from Stars, or the first King Arthurs, don't count, since both of those were rebuilds into a post-grouping design, whereas a T9 superheated post-grouping does count, since there were superheated T9s pre-grouping. I'm arbitrarily saying that 60102 doesn't really count, since it was rebuilt to an A3 (and was also withdrawn in November 1961, anyway). As with 30120, preserved engines resuscitated for rail tours in later BR years, like the the Caley single and 61572, also don't count.

I'm genuinely curious, because I can guess at the Southern but my knowledge of the last survivors on other regions is rather less good. So, any suggestions for the last pre-grouping express class?

 

The last LNER ones were probably ex GER B12 No.61572, withdrawn in September 1961, and the ex GCR D11's, withdrawn in 1960. However, LNER built D11's soldiered on in Scotland till the beginning of 1962. NER B16's lasted till 1964 but were classed as mixed traffic.
31067 can hardly be classed as a passenger loco. Other pre-grouping locos lasted until 1967 (J27 & Q6)

 

Of greater interest is surely the class with the longest active service given that such Passenger Classes as the LBSCR Terriers and the LSWR 2-4-0T survivors were originally built for suburban passenger service. In that context, the oldest active pre-grouping class I suspect was the LBSCR A1/A1x "Terriers" 0-6-0T introduced in 1872 BUT rebuilt in 1911 or LSWR 0298 2-4-0WT 30585-7 introduced in 1874, closely followed by the MR 0-6-0 2F (581xx series) of 1875 and the MR 0-6-0T (417xx series) introduced in 1878 whilst the NER (LNER J21) 2F 0-6-0 of 1886; the NBR (LNER J36) 2F 0-6-0 of 1888; the GER (LNER J15) 1P2F 0-6-0 of 1883; the NBR (LNER Y9) of 1882; GER (LNER J66) 0-6-0T of 1866 (latterly in Departmental service and withdrawn in 1966) and GER (Class J92) of 1868 (withdrawn in 1952) must be close contenders for length of active service between introduction to service and final withdrawal by BR.

If allowed for rebuilding (as with the LBSR A1 to A1x) this brings into contention the Kirtley 0-6-0 of 1863 (last member withdrawn in 1951); Johnson MR 1P 0-4-4-T (580xx series) of 1875 (last member withdrawn in 1960); Johnson's MR 2F 0-6-0 (58xxx series) of 1875 (last member withdrawn in 1964) or the North London 0-4-2ST Crane Tank built 1858 and withdrawn by BR as 58865 in 1951. Based on the dates quoted I suspect the North London Crane Tank would thane the title of Longest Serving Steam Locomotive - unless anyone knows differently.

Passed to the number crunchers for confirmation.

 

How can a lightweight, large drivered 4-4-0 (re)built for boat train service not be considered a passenger loco? Were you thinking of the LBSCR 0-6-0T E1 class?

 

Clue in the question guys,express passenger

 

No, Late at night and I was thinking of 31065. Blame it on the Southerns disorganised numbering scheme.

 

It should be fairly easy to determine what locomotives built as express engines before the
grouping ran latest. But what was the last class to regularly work express trains is a
matter of defining both what was an express and which expresses trains were a regular
turn for an eligible locomotive to haul. I take it we are not including runs when there was
a locomotive failure and something that was regrouping took over. (Though you could
argue that was what a station pilot was for.) Generally old express locomotives ended up
at best on semi fasts - an empty stock train on a good path could well have been as near
as they finally got to a fast through train.
There were certainly turns are on the Southern Region in the 1950s - Brighton Atlantics on
the Newhaven Boat trains for example - and there may have been something into the 1960s.

 

I think a fair number of Stars survived into the latter 50's, from recollection the last was withdrawn c.1958ish But looks like that has been beaten above.

 

Midland compound? last ones withdrawn in 1961, the 2Ps I think 1962. These were the LMS built ones, but they were a post grouping continuation of a pre group design. Caledonian Pickersgill 4-4-0s too, last one about the same time?

 

You could argue the last surviving pre grouping GWR express class in service was City of Truro, but failing that the last unmodified Star went in 1957. The last rebuilt Star, 4037, went in 1962, but there must have been precious few original components left by then.

OT there were a number of pre group 4200s 2-8-0T and at least one 2800 2-8-0 that survived until 1965.

 

Only 1 year out with the star withdrawal then, not bad off the top of my head.

 

I think the laurels rest with a GNR(I) loco....just a question of which one as many lasted to the middle sixties (i'd go for 131 built 1913 and withdrawn 1963. It's slightly bigger sisters were rebuilt in the late 30 but 131 wasn't as far as I can see

 

Sorry failed on two counts as this one was built in 1928 and had a major rebuild when it had a Thompson design boiler/firebox fitted.

 

Did the D30/2 class start out as an express passenger class? 62421/6 lasted 46 years until mid 1960, so should get into the league table.

After the Johnson 2Fs, I think the Adams 0395 class were some of the oldest tender locos left running in the late 50s. Some reboilered but some not.

 

Ireland is probably good for rich pickings on this question.
How about GSWR 4-4-0 301, withdrawn very late, I think.
Also, the MGWR K Class 2-4-0: do these count as express? They certainly lasted late, and had largeish driving wheels.

 

Ian Allen produced a booklet on veteran locos in the 1960s.

As for mainline UK locos, The ex-LBSCR A1X Terriers were the oldest locos still in use in the 1960s till November 1963 when the Hayling Line was closed.

Then ex- LSWR O2 Fishbourne W14 became the oldest loco in use till 31st December 1966 on the IOW. Fishbourne was specially rostered for that last day by Ivor Davies Ryde St Johns Road shed foreman

Ok, not exactly express locos, but the oldest locos in use on BR up until that last day of steam passenger working on the IOW on 31st December 1966.


Cheers,
Julian

 

In the geographical expression, in the 1920s, there was no grouping North of the Border or in the railways that ran across it.
Hence the delightful survival of : the NCC, the Belfast & Co. Down, the Giant's Causeway Tramway, the Londonderry & Lough
Swilly Railway- with extensions, the Castlederg and Victoria Bridge, The Co. Donegal Joint Committee, the Sligo Leitrim and Northern
Counties which, of course, connected with the GNR(I) until both shut in Enniskillen with the Great Northern Railway of Ireland still
styling itself "of Ireland" presumably to avoid confusion with the American Corporation after the English company was amalgamated away in 1923.








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Yes I would say fairly express engines: they superseded 2-2-2 saddle tanks on the night mails and they were certainly free running.

 

correct as far as it goes but of course the NCC and part of the CDR were part of the grouping under the LMSR.

In any case what really matters oin the context of this thread is the date 1923 and certainly some locos of pre- that date survived until the mid sixties in some numbers.

The history of the railways of Ireland is so interlinked with that of the UK and can't really be left out of this thread on the slim grounds that they weren't "grouped"