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Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    As you say, fraught with obstacles, and potentially you could end up building (and even worse maintaining) six miles of railway just to end up in a field three miles away from a destination of any interest.

    My opinion is we have to make the current railway pay before entertaining any notion of a further expansion. EG was worth the candle - a rail connection, at the London end, in a town. I can’t see that either south nor west hold anything like the same benefit.

    Tom
     
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  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I’m not sure where the operational gain would be - at least not unless there was substantial land available for more workshop or storage space. As things stand, for example, we can draw a six coach train out of the carriage shed into the headshunt, ie there is room for a six coach train plus a loco. You could lengthen the headshunt to make that seven, but that only becomes worthwhile if the carriage shed extended north by an equivalent length, at which point the River Ouse gets in the way! So in practical terms I can’t see much benefit.

    Tom
     
  3. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, Tom- I was talking way in the future there. Something for generations when we are long gone.
     
  4. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    What do you consider the measurement of that is and how achievable is it? As I noted in #2650, the accounts of the group entities show that last year the Bluebell Railway absorbed around £1.2 million more than it raised from its commercial activities.
     
  5. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    Quite.
    The railway, per se, will never pay for itself, but will always be reliant to a greater or lesser extent on donations and legacies. That is the nature of the beast, and particularly so right now, with the infrastructure renewals programme in full swing. Track renewal, bridgework, OP4, 5, etc. and station refurbs plus umpteen locomotives all needing new fireboxes, all that is taking huge amounts of cash.
    Yes this will serve the railway well in years to come, but all the more reason why vanity projects like Haywards Heath (or Barcombe Junction;)) will have to wait for future generations.
    As Bernard Holden himself was fond of saying "You don't make money from running trains"
     
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  6. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Looking at the two potential extensions, going to Ardingly alone would have a certain novelty value but little else. Once the enthusiast community had had a their ride and "ticked it off", it's hard to see there being much potential for anything except running almost empty trains. Getting through to Haywards Heath might turn out to be much more than a vanity project if it is achievable but there is no doubt that the challenges posed by running 25mph steam trains, even for only a mile, over one of the busiest main lines in the country, would be immense.

    The "Southern extension" is the opposite. A limited extension to a new station near Newick on the A272 might bring benefits as it would give link the Bluebell to an important west-east road - and probably wouldn't present too many obstacles apart from rebuilding the bridge over the A275. Going any further south would be a lot of effort - a new route avoiding the site of the old Newick & Chailey station, another cutting to excavate, this time filled with far more noxious substances than the domestic rubbish in Imberhorne, so I understand - and for what? Unless Bluebell trains can somehow reach Lewes, there's nowhere south of the A272 which is worth extending to. Barcombe is a pleasant enough village, but it's hardly Broadway, Corfe Castle or Dunster
     
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  7. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    It would only ever be worth considering if the Uckfield-Lewes link were reopened and an interchange station could be created at Culver Junction (originally mooted as Barcombe Junction station in the original LEGR proposals)
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    It's an interesting question. Personally, I'm not too averse if the cash picture is balanced by income from the Society and Trust - it would hardly be unique in the museum / heritage world. Obviously you have to plan for long-term changes in those income streams, but that is no different from long-term changes in commercial revenue.

    That said - it would obviously be preferable if the commercial revenue was better. Historically, we've actually been rather good at diversifying revenue sources (witness the contribution things like filming, and premium dining, make to the overall picture) but maybe we have done it at the expense of sufficient focus on routine day-in, day-out traffic. So clearly that is the challenge, and it is one reason why I struggle to see the benefit of a further extension, since it just generates extra running cost without any obvious means to increase traffic. I also think we are probably at the viable limit of a two train service in terms of gaps between trains (75 minutes), so a southwards extension - even only as far as Newick, as per @John Petley - would probably require running a three train service at weekends, and an Ardingly extension definitely would. So you not only have extra infrastructure cost, but additional rolling stock requirement.

    Tom
     
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  9. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    Just for clarification the SVR opens on 17 Feb and runs daily for half term then weekends and odd extra days until Easter when we run daily either sideFrom may we have daily running
     
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  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    But having said that I imagine that if the Bluebell Railway had the opportunity to extend its tracks across the A275 for occasional use or as an extended head shunt for visiting charters, then perhaps that might alleviate the logistical issues that are sometimes apparent at Sheffield Park. Suddenly you might have space for a turntable and a further visitor attraction.

    Sorry, off with the fairies again!
     
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  11. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Thanks for your thoughts Tom. I tend to see a preserved/heritage railway as having an unspoken contract between management and supporters, along the lines "this is what we the management can deliver within the parameters set by you the supporters, and this means that you the supporters will have to provide £x this year in subs/donations etc". When this doesn't meet in the middle, there will be problems. I think that increasing revenue by getting more people to buy the rover/return fare is difficult for mature railways, and as Robin White noted elsewhere, the board should probably take a keen interest in a budget which is based on an increase in the numbers of pax. If one were to imagine an ideal model, I always think of something like Crich (which is my destination of choice if I want to entertain non-enthusiasts), although visitor numbers are less than one might expect and they seem to rely on donations as much as anyone (and run catering at a loss which is extraordinary as visitors are basically captive).
     
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  12. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Hence my use of the word "might" when evaluating the benefits of any proposed extension.
     
  13. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    I believe the bridge at the south end of SP was always quite low, so that would make any reinstatement very tricky. The road would need lowering (increasing the gradient on the hill) or the railway would need raising. Not a huge job relatively speaking if it was part of an extension (or if the dairy just south was one day bought by an eccentric millionaire as a new site for loco works), but completely impractical if it’s only to extend a headshunt I’m afraid...


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  14. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    Re: Western extension - I would love to see it, particularly as I live in Haywards Heath. But I fear it’s almost impossible to see how regular trains could fit down to HH - I think I’m right in saying there’s space for another track almost the whole way (if you had £5m to move signalling and cables), but theres one overbridge that would be the pinch point... Given how busy the London-Brighton is, I’ve got no idea how it’d ever be practical. Extending to Ardingly would be much easier than the northern extension (bridge deck already in stock, no tip, no obstructions, no bartering with landowners), but there’s really not much to be gained. It’d be a long time (if ever) before the station site became available, so you’ve really just got a long siding.

    I went on the branch a couple of years ago when there were some trips on the thumper - there’s really not all that much to write home about there...

    In my dream scenario where the eccentric billionaire leaves £100m to the line, there’s a great museum at Ardingly, regular Jacobite style trips from Brighton, line relaid with traditional sleepers, rebuilt train of Brighton bogie coaches, a new Baltic for the main line, and Gladstone on loan from the NRM, but it’s pretty unlikely to come true!


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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's my understanding, though "lower the road" has the additional problem that it would increase flood risk, so the railway would probably become liable for pumping infrastructure. (The root issue, for those unaware, is that after the railway was closed and the bridge removed, the alignment and level of the road was eased, so a straight reinstatement to how things were pre-closure is not possible).

    I did do a fag packet calculation (*) and reckon you could get a worthwhile increase in headroom (perhaps 2 - 3 feet) by increasing the gradient of the line from the current 1 in 80 to 1 in 55, which is the new de-facto ruling gradient on the line, so would impose no additional load restrictions. But you are into WIBN territory if all you gain is a longer headshunt.

    (*) Current: roughly 6 - 7 carriages long from loco ground frame to where a bridge would have to be, i.e. perhaps about 400 feet at 1 in 80, so south end of the line is presumably 5 feet higher than where the loco yard points are. At 1 in 55, you would climb 7.25 feet in the same length. So steepening the gradient would gain you another 27 inches, give or take, which would be useful on a bridge with minimal clearance. I told you it was back of a fag packet ...

    Tom
     
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  16. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

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    Also living in Haywards Heath (almost literally across the road from the station) again it would be nice to see steam in the town more permanently rather than railtours (although we are blessed more than other areas for railtours with between 3-5 a year) and with Borde Hill Gardens as a potential destination for visitors.

    But given that land was supposedly left for a future Bluebell station site at HH when the station was redeveloped, there is virtually no space at all for a line into a single platform or run round loop which also have no space despite the space supposedly being allocated for it. And for the line into the station there's virtually no room anymore for an additional track from Copyhold Junction, especially over the bridge the station is on (unless it uses the goods loop).

    I think it's only hope really and I think has been discussed or suggested in recent Bluebell News issues are for it to maybe be part of some community line.
     
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  17. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

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    Mmm.. And then its into WSR territory, and all the joys of internecine strife that particular proposal has brought about. For so many reasons, heritage and "community rail" just cannot mix.
    I was in HH recently, and was gobsmacked at the sheer lack of any space left for a Bluebell station. Barely enough for a single road, let alone any platform or run-round, unless there is a covenant in place to claw back a chunk of Waitroses carpark? Its all pretty dismal.
     
  18. 'Community railways' are a fanciful notion, a last-ditch belief clung on to by those who want to see railways reopened, but who can't find any other reason for justifying their desire.

    They fall back on the belief that, somehow, all the other reasons for originally closing rural branch lines will have magically disappeared and that people will be flocking to use a 'community railway' because it will somehow pay for itself through the generosity and goodwill of the local population (and local council/government); that said local population will be so keen - in a Titfield Thunderbolt-esque way - to see 'their' railway succeed that they will be a bottomless pit of funding, goodwill and patience. They will all trundle happily along in a DMU in a gloriously Ealing comedy-style manner and all will be well.

    Unfortunately, the rather more prosaic reality is that, for all the use of the term 'community railway', not one single line has ever been able to make it work. People still prefer to drive from A to B (or HK to HH), because it is inevitably be more convenient, cheaper, quicker and the transport runs at precisely the moment they want it to. The fact that an 'inter-city' (to coin a phrase) route like the Brighton line thrives, but all the surrounding branches are long closed, tells you everything you need to know. The key to successful passenger railways are those that link larger centres of population, not feeders from small ones.

    If someone from Horsted Keynes wants to nip to the supermarket in Haywards Heath - or East Grinstead for that matter - they will jump into their Chelsea Chariot (one for each adult member of the family on the drive) and drive there. They're not going to piffle about walking to the station to wait for an infrequent train.

    'Community railway' is a utopian dream, which died along with mass car ownership, Beeching and the failure of railbuses to keep rural lines open. A worthy dream, but an impossible one.
     
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  19. nine elms fan

    nine elms fan Part of the furniture

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    And far prettier if you drive via Lindfield, I just love Lindfield, but too expensive to live there.
     
  20. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Yes, with the biggest bells you can imagine on! However there are many fanatics out there who will push this very noisily.

    PH
     

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