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6201, her new lease of life.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Sidmouth, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Again you're assuming I wish to read the constitution due to livery. While many many people wish to see it in another colour, it would be nice as I haven't ever seen one in another livery to be able to make my own decision, it's not the reason for wishing to read the document. If you can't help that's more than fine, but there is no need for such sarcasm. Were all adults here and don't need to get worked up on what is just a discussion forum.
     
  2. bob.meanley

    bob.meanley Member

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    I can only apologise if you misunderstood my previous post as sarcasm, it was only borne out of amazement that you appeared unable to comprehend my simple statement that it was in the society's original constitution, which I am sure you will understand is different to the Mem and Arts to which you have referred. As you appear eager to have gone to the considerable trouble of searching out the Memorandum and Articles of association, and read the numerous pages therein, and yet claim that you do not wish to seek out and read the far less complex original society rules, I shall try to explain them to you simply. The original objective of the society back in 1960 was to preserve the locomotive in the LMS red livery which it carried at the time of its famous 1936 test run to Glasgow.You should note that there was no mention therein of any intent to make it work again, in fact the founder, Roger Bell , was expressly advised against such an action by a number of leading railwaymen, who considered that "a band of amateurs will never be able to maintain one of those". Now this original aim is why all of the founding contributors (many of whom are sadly no longer here to ask of for a view on this matter) gave their money at that time. It is a matter of principle (a rarely understood concept nowadays) that this original aim has been upheld by successive society managements, and hopefully will continue to be so in the future. Consideration of the whims and fancies on this subject from people who have contributed nothing to the locomotive should not ( in my view) be entertained in deference to the wishes of the people who bought it. You should be aware that one of the truly major contributors to the fund is still thankfully with us and I feel sure that he would be appalled at the thought of it in BR green. Hopefully it is soon going to be running around once more displaying the Crimson Lake livery of the company which built it, rather than celebrating the green livery of the outfit which ran it into the ground and fully intended to put it in the scrap bin.

    Hopefully this has now enlightened your lack of understanding on this matter. And by the way, please do not trouble yourself by thinking that you had in any way succeeded in getting me worked up, as you put it. I suppose my original post was really only trying to echo the simple exhortation of one of my favourite schoolmasters - "read, mark, learn, boy". I can only hope that this somewhat longer one will do the trick.
    Best Regards
    Bob
     
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  3. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Amen to that. That's very much the mental association I have with the BR livery too.
     
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  4. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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    Somewhere I have a Tri-ang OO gauge model of 46201 in BR green which was run by it's owner (me) until it was only fit for the scrap bin.
     
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  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I get where you're coming from Jim, even if part of me is thinking: "Like all the big four kept everything spotless and scrapped nothing!"

    The reality of course was that BR happened to be the outfit who replaced their scrapped steamers with 'modern traction' which would in any event have happened by now, even if nationalisation never had.

    Perhaps not nearly as much cash would've been flushed down the khazi, wasted on some truly dreadful 1st gen diesel classes, perhaps we'd have had more lines electrified earlier, but even in that alternative timeline I'm guessing wagonload freight would still have gone dodo-wise and flangeless wheels would still be on the banned list ... and perhaps - can't resist throwing this one in - the last few 8F's in service would've been honoured with passenger livery!
     
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  6. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Not quite sure we're having the same conversation here. Where have I said that I do not wish to read the far less complex society rules?? All I was asking was, was the constitution you are referring to the M&AA as that was the only thing I could find on the internet. Obviously from your message it's not.
    Also not quite sure why you think that i am trying to "succeed" in getting you wound up. What would the point in that be? I just wanted to know if it was possible to read a document online. If not then fair enough.
     
  7. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    If I understand correctly what Bob is saying, as much as being written down in any legal document, the LMS Crimson Lake is 'a promise' to the Society's founders, and indeed a memorial to them and that seems to be the end of the matter to me. It is a 'moral commitment' far more than any sense of it being a legal one.

    I know of a loco which was restored thanks to the generosity of its owner. He wished that it be painted in a non-authentic livery for very personal and understandable reasons. There was no written commitment in the agreement when he sold it that the present owners would maintain that livery but those who knew him and have heard his reasons consider it a moral commitment. Whether in the future, as such decisions are increasingly in the hands of those who never met the gentlemen, the same moral commitment will be recognised let alone followed, we shall see, but I for one will consider it a sad day if it is not. After reading Bob;s post, I view 6201 in a similar manner.

    Steven
     
  8. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Why? They were purely goods engines and generally not too happy at 60 mph. But one did actually receive mixed traffic lining. It is thought that it swopped tenders with a Black Five and someone added the cabside lining to match, but who knows after this passage of time?

    [​IMG]

    Photo by the late Alan Castle.
     
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  9. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Why? They were purely goods engines and generally not too happy at 60 mph. But one did actually receive mixed traffic lining. It is thought that it swopped tenders with a Black Five and someone added the cabside lining to match, but who knows after this passage of time?

    [​IMG]

    Photo by the late Alan Castle.[/QUOTE]
    There is a photo about of one with a green lined tender. Taken at Speke Junction shed, I think.
     
  10. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    All this livery discussion,whilst interesting, is less relevant, for the time being at least, than whether or not 6201 has a more secure operational future ahead of it. I hope the Society will make a public statement very soon and it may even encourage an upsurge in donations if a credible plan is revealed.
     
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  11. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    that would depend on the deal struck with West Coast, for instance if the deal is work done up front in lue of hire fees and West coast in effect become the operators , then would the company accept such a deal? given the on going problems with Carnforths own 8P i can see that to have another 8P availible, and one the happens to be an LMS one, would i would think be a dream come true for David Smith as he is known to have a thing for LMS engines :)
     
  12. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Whether or not some private sponsorship / investment has been procured it will not change the ownership status. The owners may have decided to enter a contract whereby the loco is returned to operational condition in return for a defined period of usage by the third party to recoup the expenditure. This is all for the Society to clarify to its membership but it will not alter the scope of the Society to seek donations for the upkeep of 6201.
     
  13. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    That is of course a very compelling justification. Where it gets more opaque is in the realms of whether or not the original saviours would have been pragmatic in the interests of the loco remaining operational. So, for instance, if faced with the present apparent financial impecunity would the original owners be prepared to accept an offer with conditions attached to vary the livery for a short term in order to get the loco back to the position of working as 6201 eventually? Or would they simply park the loco rather than see it any other colour but working? I daresay the original owners may have been non too keen on modifying 6201 for the modern era but common sense has prevailed.
    So while I do think it is important to be respectful of previous views, perhaps the greatest tribute that could be paid is to do whatever may be necessary to keep the loco working as they presumably hoped back in 1962?
     
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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    If you read @bob.meanley 's post above, the intention back in the 1960s was:

    "The original objective of the society back in 1960 was to preserve the locomotive in the LMS red livery which it carried at the time of its famous 1936 test run to Glasgow.You should note that there was no mention therein of any intent to make it work again, in fact the founder, Roger Bell , was expressly advised against such an action by a number of leading railwaymen, who considered that "a band of amateurs will never be able to maintain one of those". Now this original aim is why all of the founding contributors (many of whom are sadly no longer here to ask of for a view on this matter) gave their money at that time."​

    (My emphasis - quoted from https://www.national-preservation.c...g-appeal-for-6201.871992/page-28#post-2072640)

    Personally, I don't have a candle in the game so am (hopefully) unbiased, but you need to be careful projecting your own personal view about how the founders may have viewed the relative importance of having the loco running now, in 2018, vs. having keeping in the condition it was in 1936, especially if those are incompatible aims. Assuming @bob.meanley is accurately reflecting the thoughts of the original members (and I have no reason to a assume that he isn't), then keeping the locomotive running would not seem to have been their overriding objective. So it is at least something of a leap to automatically assume that the greatest tribute that could be paid to the original preservers would be to do "whatever may be necessary" to get it running.

    Tom
     
  15. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    For instance, would the orginal members who saved it have objected if as part of the deal she re appeared in BR maroon , in return to the engine being active again?
     
  16. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Can't argue with that Tom, the only hope we can have is that the present custodians exercise their judgement wisely. They obviously thought that 1936 could be compromised to the extent of modern modifications, however subtle.
    Its all rather hypothetical unless someone comes along and says I will donate quarter of a million quid on condition it is used to overhaul the loco to mainline condition and runs in BR livery for two years thereafter. Nice dilemna to have that might be!
     
  17. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Well, unless some are still around to ask you'll never know. One thing is for sure though...the only liveries Lizzie carried in BR days were black and BR green.

    Whilst it is entertaining to speculate what's going on behind closed doors at 10A, I do hope the outcome means she actually becomes domiciled there. Three of the class were so allocated towards the end of their lives in the early 60's, though my memory of that spectacle saw them (at various times) in sidings with sacks over their chimneys :eek:
     
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  18. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    It never was in BR maroon
     
  19. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    neither did a certain Jubilee,
     
  20. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I know, I was hoping they had a tin of paint left over from BIL
     

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