Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

It’s really not THAT ugly. There are by far uglier steam locomotives.!

I really do think it’s a case of conditioning where LNER enthusiasts are concerned!

But hey, beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that.

 

A very good friend of mine described the original A1 as "where God guided Gresley's hand."

Aesthetics transcend designers and sorry to say, but Thompson got it badly wrong with the rebuilt Great Northern. His B1 looks fine by comparison, if a little functional. But again, we must see the B1 within the context of the time it was designed and built.

 

While understanding what @ross means (and noting there was the odd crime against style in this country too!), there were many honourable exceptions and not even all were painted plain black. Here's one of my all-time favourites (image credit www.tvnp.fr) designed by Marc deCaso built in 1949 and survives, stuffed and mounted, at the French National Railway Museum in Mulhouse:

 

Beauty is entirely in the eye of the beholder but I just love the pugnacious looks of a DR Class 01.5.
01 509 Neustadt. Neustadt Plandampf. by KING COBRA 92, on Flickr

 

How much "wriggle" room would there be for the luxury of considering aesthetics in the design process? Wartime austerity and short staffing would put it way down the list I would have thought.

 

Maybe I have no taste but I’ve never looked at a loco and thought ‘that is ugly’.

I do look at say GWR locos and ask myself ‘is all that copy necessary?’ And I suspect some designs especially in the C19were more style than substance.

 

GWR gave us the "Kruger" {shudder}. They spent the next 50 years over-compensating by producing magnificently embellished, stunning looking locos by way of an apology.

 

IMHO the best looking ones were the three S.A.C.M. 4-4-2s prior to rebuilding.

PH

 

Ah, loco aesthetics.

On purely aesthetic grounds (and no other) can I stick my head above the parapet and say that Gresley A4s have never really done it for me.

Of the LNER Pacifics, “Flying Scotsman” as built was beautiful, but every subsequent modification made it progressively uglier. The Peppercorn Pacifics have a definite “presence”. Not really a fan of any of the others ...

Tom

 

Whereas, for me, the A4s are the most aesthetically pleasing steam locomotive design of all, and Flying Scotsman (like the Princess Royals over the road at Euston) lacks a certain presence which the Peppercorn pacifics provide (as do the unstreamlined Coronations).

It may be relevant in assessing my aesthetic choices to note that one of my favourite aircraft designs is the Phantom, which has been described as many things, but rarely "beautiful".

 

Not a bad choice although IMO the EE Lightning tops it.

 

Well, had it not been for the First World War the northern section of the ECML might have been electrified before 1923; presumably, at York Gresley's Pacifics would have handed over to one of these...!

https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ee1.php

 

To me, an A4 in original condition, with valences, in silver or in blue with chrome lettering, is simply magnificent. In fact, they transcend the realm of locomotive aesthetics: they are, genuinely, a design icon (a phrase which is sadly over-used!).

By contrast, as soon as you take the valences off, they suddenly look like they have hit an immovable object at great speed, and hence developed an awful bend in the middle. Aesthetics are a very delicate balance, and it doesn't take much to upset them.

A3s are maybe not quite so striking at first sight. But the more you look at them, the more you appreciate the beautifully-sculpted curves of the running plate. When you see photographs of them in the '60s, grubby and battered, they still manage to look stylish by comparison with the lesser engines around them!

 

102 of course was a smaller loco than 103/4 (and IMHO was rather prettier than the other two).

 

It survived until 1950 and then was cut up. Utterly criminal.

 

Over compensating suggests some inadequacies - a bit like aging men and their sports cars.

I had a collection of old trains illustrated/modern railways magazines from around 1962 and there was a series of articles by Brian Haresnape about design and what designers are trying to convey. I really liked the articles. He is supposed to have written a book on design and colour but I’ve drawn a blank on finding it.

 

Try "Railway Liveries......" and "Design for..." at Abebooks

 

Ahem, Ross 5005 in this condition could never be described as 'stunning' Although as someone who likes Ivatt 4MT's and 15xx Pannier tanks maybe I'm in no position to judge!

 

It does have the potential to stun........... but maybe not in a good way.

 

It is a rather phallic design - over-compensating again?

Thanks. I'll give it another go, last time I tried I drew a blank