Boiler Repairs and Competency - ex Lottery turns down funding for GCR Museum

I believe Puffing Billy’s decision had more to do with getting a foreign design certified under Australian rules. Boston Lodge certainly thought it has enough life left in it to be worth importing and overhauling whilst at the same time a new boiler is under construction for one of their other garratts.

 

Another way of looking at it though is this; I'm training to be a dentist, a high skill, high value job, yet I'm paying £9,250 for the privilege! The decent apprenticeships aren't just about what you get paid, it's about what qualifications you end up with.

 

it isn't, it's an apprenticeship.

 

It is if it is your boiler that is being worked on.

I'm not disputing this. But when you leave uni your first earning job won't be at minimum wage. Plus, when you come out of uni, if there is a job at minimum wage or an alternative job (or career) paying better with better conditions, which would you go for?

My basic point is - that if railways want to attract high quality 16 year olds something above minimum wage might help.

I think there is still a tendency to see working on the railway as JGF (Jolly Good Fun) and forgetting that it is someone's living. I personally believe that good wages and conditions are critical in recruiting and holding onto the best staff. (Again, I don't want to make this a political argument - but if there is considerable out-migration over the next decade or so then there could be a serious labour shortage and so retaining trained staff may become a critical issue).

The whole JGF confrontation was because it wasn't JGF if you were working long hours, poor conditions for poor pay (in an area of high unemployment so little leverage).

I'll be at the barricades with a pitchfork if anyone needs me

 

The problem is that even senior engineering and management roles on heritage railways aren’t especially well remunerated. Possibly a consequence of being essentially tourism businesses, not engineering businesses - tourism in general doesn’t pay particularly well. Ultimately, railways pay what they can afford, so the answer to higher wages has to be higher revenue - which is where you bump into the fact that in broad terms, you can only charge prices that offer similar perceived value for money to other attractions in the area.

As for apprentices in general: my understanding is that the wage includes time in study - i.e. someone might be on or close to the minimum wage for a 40 hour week, but that probably means 32 hours in the workshop and 8 hours in college. To put it into a little bit of perspective, most people over the age of 18 undergoing any kind of study have to pay for it, rather than be paid.

Tom

 

Having worked with apprentices for a number of years, I have some understanding of how they work.

Their wages reflect their ability to produce income for their employers and the wages improve as they are paid to learn.
The government set a minimum rate for apprentices, which increases year on year as they progress.

Building services apprentices start on a low wage and initially cost their employers time and money to train, attendance at college is required and has to be funded, usually after 3-4 years they achieve an industry recognised qualification, which with CPD may well provide employment for many years to come, mines served me well for 40 years plus so far.

At age 19-20 on completion of their training wages will reflect ability, typically £20 to £25,000 pa as a minimum. Better engineers earn better wages, even having gone through identical apprenticeships earnings of £30 to £35,000 are achieved by a significant proportion.
There's no commitment for apprentices to stay with the employers who subsidised their training (the qualification and experience gained belong to the apprentice), many set up their own business, change employers, develop specialism, relocate to areas where wages are higher etc, etc.

My experience is not railway related, but all apprenticeships, where a genuine trade is learned operate in a similar manner. Like University they are an option available to young people

 

do you actually understand what an apprenticeship is? This lad won't be working on anyone's boiler, the boilersmith will be doing that and this lad will be watching and learning, passing the tools making the tea etc to start with and gradually learning the job . I can't really grasp where you're coming from.

 

Simmer down tiger. I do understand what an apprenticeship is. If you can't grasp where I am coming from then I'm afraid I can't help you. Is it really so hard to understand the concept of better wages attracting better staff/candidates?

 

Not that there is nothing in what you say about wages but it is not the be all and end all and I think it applies less with trade apprenticeships. The 'best' candidate an employer might hope for is someone with a good work ethic. If you apply a higher level of intelligence to the candidate then there is a very good chance that they will have already decided they are going to university by the time they are 16. So you want to find someone who has a good work ethic, middle of the road academically, and in this case, a good practical grasp of how this get put together and be able to learn the process behind it and put it into practice in a consistently competent fashion.

However, 16 year olds are very hard to pigeon hole! The perfect apprentice may jack it in for the smallest reason, or the worst dropkick apprentice may discover that the work is his reason for being and turn his life around. Once the apprenticeship is finished, then good luck keeping them. As was said upthread, they will invariably shop around or choose other paths as finances and other things become more critical to their lives. A friend of mine was the perfect type for an apprentice and took up a placement with Queensland Rail - I can't remember if he was a fitter and turner,or boilermaker, but part of his apprenticeship was working on QR's heritage steam fleet (I was very jealous!). He did his "time", and could have had a government job for life (definitely something not to be sneezed at in any sense), and was the type of person who would have risen through the ranks. Somewhere along the line he decided he wanted to become an airline pilot and that is what he did (eventually!). Myself, I finished my plumbing apprenticeship, had a kid shortly after, then everything changed for me and we made a life choice that wasn't all about money - indeed, if I had stuck with it, I would most definitely be better off now financially. I was good at my job, but it wasn't floating my boat. Throwing more money at me would not have changed anything.

Apprenticeships are a hard sell in this day and age. Having a trade "for life" has lost its resonance. I cross paths with many 'tradies' that won't hire apprentices now because it is not worth the effort only to risk seeing them walk out the door after they finish their time. Govts promote apprentice schemes and make them more financially attractive to employers because of that attitude. Some large firms will take advantage of that and embrace a revolving door attitude that's results in apprentices not being trusted to do more complex tasks and some spend 4 years doing monkey work then get the heave-ho when the financial incentives finish. After 4 years they get their "ticket" but their skills are lacking. They really struggle to find more work and invariably drop out of the industry.

Sorry, I've rambled on a bit there!

 

I don’t disagree with you. I just think that sometimes we look at paid work on railways through enthusiasts’ eyes, and maybe it will pull in that 16 year old for whom working on the railway is their dream job. Maybe that kid is the right fit, maybe they get jaded pretty quickly when they find it is much harder work than they thought it was. As you say a lot of things can change.

I volunteered at a railway which had quite a few paid staff there was a lot of tension between paid staff, who were badly paid and overworked in an area of high unemployment (so it wasn’t like they could jack it in and go and do something else) and volunteers who tended to be wealthier and who would then go back to their well paid jobs or their parents. Some people couldn’t understand why the paid staff were often miserable and grumpy (some were tbh just arses) because for some volunteers it was a dream job, but for the staff it was that or the dole and being told that they should be enjoying their work was just patronising.

Interestingly I was working with a couple of the older fitters (both sadly now dead) and one of the apprentices. The apprentice certainly wasn’t just standing around passing tools. Last I heard about him had risen to be in charge of the workshops.

 

Sorry, I did somewhat wander outside the brief and look jadedly at apprenticeships in general. Certain industries would definitely have a pull factor outside of "following in my dad's footsteps" and working in a heritage environment could certainly fit with that.

Absolutely, there are good ones that are very suited and have the skills and attitude to step up when required. That can also be fostered by a good teacher just as much as something inherent in the apprentice. Some of the apprentices that I worked with required a bit more patience than I had to give!

 

My employer hires a large number of apprentices. The on the job training comes from hands on involvement, not just observing. If my kids go down the apprenticeship route, I would advise them to get well away from any employer that uses them in that way.


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Wait, I’m confused.

We are upset when apprentices do actual work but also upset when they are baby sat and inevitably go elsewhere?

When compared against the English tuition fee system, I often bring up the apprenticeship option for school leavers as something well worth considering.

Undergrad degree, £60k debt and your deductions don’t even cover the interest? So you never actually replay?
Or take an apprenticeship, get paid, and get invaluable hands on experience? Tough call......

 

the employer gets value from his cost in the work they actaully do, which oitherwise a skilled man would have to do. If they go elsewhere after, then the Employer takes on another. Remember there might not actually be a job for the apprentice on completion, he might have to spread his wings, that's how it works isn't it? That way the good ones progress and the bad ones fall by the wayside as unemployable.

 

I think you have got an unnecessarily pessimistic view of the value of modern apprenticeship schemes, both to the employer and the apprentice.

Tom

 

I doubt you can possibly know any such thing.

 

Not in my experience. Employers spend considerable amounts on apprenticeships, and hope for a return on that investment. They aren’t just cheap labour, and the release is a burden on an employer. They’re worth nurturing.


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Do you actually understand what an apprenticeship is? This lad won't be working on anyone's boiler, the boilersmith will be doing that and this lad will be watching and learning, passing the tools making the tea etc to start with and gradually learning the job . I can't really grasp where you're coming from.

the employer gets value from his cost in the work they actaully do, which oitherwise a skilled man would have to do. If they go elsewhere after, then the Employer takes on another. Remember there might not actually be a job for the apprentice on completion, he might have to spread his wings, that's how it works isn't it? That way the good ones progress and the bad ones fall by the wayside as unemployable.

Two rather contradictory statements here. The whole point of an appenticeship is that the training is focused on hands-on training. Have a look at the NYMR's Facebook page to see a case in point - the diesel fitter apprentices were given a project in the shape of restoring the O4 diesel shunter, preparing and fitting the new engine.

 

Last I checked the Employer also has to check said work the apprentice does is to a satisfactory level when they do the hands on work. They then oversee and sign off said work. Fairly certain it wouldn't be the apprentice who's on the hook if something then subsequently goes wrong...

 

As regards apprentices in the various boilershops whilst their training they will have to do a fair degree of hands on work as part of their certification so I would expect the apprentice will be doing a lot of the less technical work, at first under instruction, for instance drilling out stays , drilling rivets cleaning up holes counter sinking holding the former whilst the more skilled boilersmith uses the tool to turn the head over, before getting the trainee to do a couple, cutting out tubes recutting the thread in tubeplates , fitting new tubes into the boiler there is a lot of work apprentices can do on a boiler that don't need a fully trained boilersmith to do , some of which are very time consuming and will free up the boilersmith to do the more important things