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V4 2-6-2 No. 3403

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Foxhunter, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    Sometimes the blinkered outlook on this forum is depressing. "Ooh, it's GOT to steam!"

    Why Green Arrow? Why not the Ivatt Atlantics, for example? I'd love to see those in steam, but I know I won't and I can accept that.

    Let's make something perfectly clear here.. I have no problem with GA being returned to steam, as long as it has a monobloc casting. Not three separate cylinders just because you're desperate to see it in steam. That is why it was placed in the National Collection. Is it that hard for you to understand? There is a difference between owning a locomotive /carriage privately and running it for profit versus an item held by a museum where conservation is one of the key considerations.

    As I have said before and will say again - you want to see it in steam, raise the money to fund a new monobloc casting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Why are we getting so hung up on the monobloc?

    This was a component Gresley designed that proved lacking when availability of locos was important.

    It slowed overhauls, required lifting of the boiler to be removed, was generally an unnecessary bit of design. All subsequent LNER locos had separate cylinders and the V2s gained this feature too to their betterment, maintenance and overhaul wise.

    If it was GAs original monobloc there would be an argument for not steaming it. It’s not, and it’s not an historically important feature, IMO.

    As I’ve got older and read up more on the LNER it has more and more seemed to me to be a fallacy to deny 4771 to steam again on the basis of the monoblocs condition.
     
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  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    As many have said before - and doubtless will say in the future - IF the monobloc is such an important factor why not remove it and put it out for display then fit 4771/60800 with the standard separate cylinders so that it can be returned to main line service and provide funds to the Rail Museum. As far as Joe Public is concerned there is little external difference between the two and only the rivet counters seem to be concerned about the retention of the monobloc arrangement.
    IMHO the preservation of the V2 design is justified by the wheel arrangement and its performance in service and is a fitting part of the Gresley legacy (A4 / A3 / V2) of main-line locomotives with A4 Fast Express; A3 Secondary Express and V2 Mixed Traffic.
    No doubt the arguments will sway both ways BUT until someone puts Money into the Kitty it seems that the V2 will languish as a display item only.
     
  4. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Indeed, if the monoblock is important then there is very little sense in leaving it where it can't be seen (except perhaps by special arrangement in special circumstances, such as for research).

    BUT this thread is supposed to be about the forthcoming V4. Shouldn't all these posts about the V2 be moved to a separate thread?
     
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  5. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    If it's all about money and blinkered enthusiasts wanting photo opportunities and rides and forgetting what the purpose of a museum is, why stop at Green Arrow? Why not Mallard?

    How is it so difficult to understand the concept and raison d'etre of Green Arrow being preserved as built - not modified just so a few trainspotters can get a line side photo? Or are some here really that hard of thinking?

    In answer to those who say "but it's hidden away so it doesn't matter", here's a radical solution - section the locomotive and put it on display.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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  6. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Indeed why not Mallard, perhaps for its Hundredth...
     
  7. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    Because there are other A4s in running condition.
     
  8. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    I`m agree with you.:) The title could be "A new-build V2 or not a new build V2 - that`s the question";)

    Knut
     
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  9. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    I told you this would happen. My parting shot on Mallard is that in 20 years time it should be restored to running order. In 20 years time the Scotsman will be heading for its 3rd overhaul post the Riley Restoration and perhaps the money should go to Mallard instead.
    Who knows what - if any- A4's will be available from the 'Private sector ' Bittern may not be operational, SNG will be under overhaul after another 2 x 10 year stints, perhaps one or both of them plinthed...

    Back to the V4 - at slightly less than the rotational/piston speeds that allow Tornado to run at 90mph, the V4 would be doing 75mph, without applying for that higher speed it would be limited to 60mph.... thinks theres a good chance of one of those exciting midnight test runs with the wee thing pushing 85 ... ?
     
  10. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Thought Hamlet was Danish ?
     
  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    You could argue that you cannot discuss the V4 without referring to the larger wheeled V2 as well. The principle of the two locomotives is almost identical - to present a locomotive that has the raw power and route availability of a larger class.

    In the V2's case, the comparison is always made to the Pacifics. The V2s were, after all, the next biggest locomotives down from the Pacifics. The V4s are smaller than the comparable B12s and B17s that they were originally designed to replace in East Anglia - ultimately the B1 was the more simple design chosen and although its route availability was not as good, its simplicity and numeracy won the day.

    Both the V2 and the V4 had monoblocs. In almost every respect, the V4 is a V2 shrunk to work the majority of the network.

    I would however be very surprised if any special dispensation was made for a new V4 to travel quicker than 60mph. There's no reports as far as I'm aware that suggests they were used at speeds quicker than that. Looking at the traffic they normally worked, there doesn't seem to be need.

    What a new V4 will produce is a genuine "go anywhere" locomotive that could travel virtually all over the country unhindered. That for me is the biggest drawer: imagine a tour of Britain behind the V4 taking in the deepest south west, south east, Wales, the north of England and the furthest reaches of Scotland, with pretty much every single rail connected preserved railway being able to host it as well.

    The world is literally the V4's oyster I think!
     
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  12. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Take your point Simon that the V4 is the Heineken of the mainline steam world and going to those hard to reach places with a decent sized train, plus Heritage line work should see her gainfully employed. Its highly unlikely that it would be deputising for the likes of 60163/2007.
    But 75 over 60 is a big jump flexibility wise and the machine is reputedly no slouch, im sure that std tanks with the same wheel size were allowed 75 in the preservation era, with the same wheel size...
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    If that's the case, then sure. Go for it. There are no arguments from me against going faster where - firstly safe - and secondly where it has merit for better pathing/times etc.

    I'm not suggesting the V4 would deputise for the A1 or P2 - clearly not. It is in a unique position of being limited only by the provision of coal and water, and not weight, width, height and kinematic envelope.
     
  14. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Think Mr Elliott might be toying with the idea of the Henschel rather than the Gresley conjugated drive ?
     
  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    There is tachnically nothing wrong with the Gresley conjugated valve gear provided it is well maintained and looked after.

    I think the main issues will always be the pins in the 2 to 1 arrangement and the marine type end - these can be redesigned and I would suggest with computer analysis allow us a locomotive that does not deviate massively from the V4 design but does make the 2 to 1 arrangement more robust.
     
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  16. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Think of the three i am finding this one the most intrigueing, there isnt much information out there ...( is there even anyone out there still who drove/ fired one ?) there isnt much on the face of it the engineers need to tinker with, no obvious marketing USP's ( Neat and Cute ? versus Pocket Rocket ?)
    Its already my favourite !
    if there was one thing about the design i would change - a v fronted cab perhaps.
     
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  17. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    V fronted cab not necessary. We had literally thousands of flat front locomotives up and down the UK - I take the point that the V fronted cab would be a minor improvement, but then it wouldn't look entirely like a V4.

    Thompson removed the V fronted cab from his Pacifics starting with Great Northern only for Peppercorn to put a version of it back on his A1 and A2s. Neither of them put it on any other locomotive designs, and in Gresley's case it was only on the A4s, P2s, V2s, the two B17/5s and the lone W1, so it was hardly an innovation that was required, so much as a "nice to have".
     
  18. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    A very handsome-looking engine that should prove very useful and popular. Hope I'm still around to see it!
     
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  19. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    A museum has many purposes and maintaining items in working order is one of them.

    *Now you're being silly.
     
  20. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Likewise. To see a working P2 is the stuff of dreams for me, to see a working V4 will be the icing on the cake.
     
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