LMS Patriot Project Updates

Indeed, to have written so negatively and accusatory about Llangollen suggests that the group are very confident in their position or should be expecting a letter shortly for making such accusations.

 

Sadly the railway beanos make statements that are completely untrue, and they will NEVER apologise to, or compensate their 'victims'.

 

Sounds like work for @Robin Moira White ?

 

I hesitate to write - but - nothing will be gained from speculation by onlookers. Nothing will be gained from a long discussion which generates more heat than light. No good will come of a one sided affair on Nat Pres with names and accusations flying around.

The only thing guaranteed from this is that people will get angry. There will be hotly contested points, much ill will, and it will not reflect well on anybody who takes part. No doubt there are members of both groups reading this thread. My advice to both groups would be to take this back behind closed doors, and find common ground.

For the rest of us, observing - now is not the time to chime in and fan flames of discontent. Now is the time to step back and say nowt.

 

Many thanks for the photos! The best wishes for the group and hopefully 2019 will things going even better

Knut

 

Contrary to popular views, I have helped settle many disputes on heritage railways or between railways and suppliers / contractors. These settlements (not always financial) are rarely public for obvious reasons. ‘Fault’ or ‘error’ is rarely all on one side.

It is sometimes necessary to ‘go public’ where groups are supported by large numbers of small donors. It is unrealistic to expect such statements to remain confidential in the days we now live in and they must be written / made with that in mind.

My phone rings at least once a week with a request for help from somewhere in the heritage world.

Who was it who said ‘jaw jaw is better than war war’?

Robin

 

Let's focus on the positives. We have a new-build Patriot based on the original design which is close to completion. The group building it are full of enthusiasm and look as though they will have the resources to finish the job. There may be a few more hurdles before we see the loco hauling charters, but a Warrior doesn't flinch at setbacks . If dirty linen is washed in public we don't have to look at it. Hey! I'm excited because I never saw an original Patriot in steam.

 

See post above? Jaw-jaw now has its own thread

 

I think the post by @BanburyKev detailing failings of the Llangollen Engineering team could end up as a catastrophic legal dispute which will only end up benefiting the inevitable suited cockroaches.

If the workmanship and QC is found to be as bad as described the kickback to the Patriot will surely be a lack of assurance as to what has so far been completed. Either a complete forensic inspection and condition report will be required or the finished machine may not be deemed fit for purpose. The effect on the Group in timing and funds either way will be disasterous.

The effect on Llangollen Engineering 's reputation will likewise if proven will likely be catastrophic. If the Patriot has indeed been constructed in a manner that isn't appropriate and work invoiced but not carried out then what about the Grange or any of the other new builds based there?

I have know idea as to what has gone on or not. I suspect there will be found issues of communication and formal specs being understood by all parties and most of all differing expectations by the parties concerned (this is ALL conjecture i hasten to add) but either way i am sure the Llangollen management team will be out to defend the accusations extremely robustly and no doubt through legal channels. Mud sticks though and this post i am sure in time will be deemed a disaster for all parties - other than the lawyers. The act of slinging mud on a discussion forum and making serious allegations is a bad move chaps.

 

To me it would make more sense for the Patriot group to get their own facility (like the A1 trust) and assemble the locomotive themselves then they can check and do everything to the standard they want and also get proper storage facilities so any parts removed are properly stored for later use. It is a very easy thing to do to remove bits and then they get put on one side and then 5 years later when you want to refit them they have gone missing. I know I have done it myself !. This is especially the case for smaller bits. I know with my own project sometimes things get overlooked simply because the end of the day comes and you haven't quite finished that section. Many of the issues raised in the original post should be fairly simple to correct with the use of the correct length bolts etc. It may well be that bits were just quickly temporarily re attached because the loco was departing.

I am really looking forward to seeing it completed. Well done to all involved.

 

The largest slice of funding for the A 1 facility in the former carriage works came from Europe, that assistance is of course out of the question now and the Patriot group are clearly stretched to the ultimate, like most new build groups they depend upon generous hosts.

 

To be fair it's one of my ambitious to build our own facilities one day. But the question it where? It would need to be mainline connected and within a reasonable distance of the majority of our volunteers. Who live in Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Cheshire, Staffordshire mainly.
Money isn't such an issue, finding people with the skills to work on locomotives is more of an issue.

 

Any large engineering project requires two basic principles.

Execution and oversight.

If either of those is insufficient, tears are sure to follow.

Many would do well to take a more agnostic view.

Let us all hope this doesn’t become a litigious affair.

The patriot needs the money far more than the lawyers.

 

I couldn’t agree more. Some form of mediation / dispute resolution is often very effective in such circumstances. Rushing off to law is often a lose-lose scenario.

Robin

 

Whatever the outcome of all this I'm surprised that the board of directors of a well run company have allowed this report to be published in the public domain.

 

We are getting organised and many of the things are being sorted so many of the things talked of above are happening. From here we go up and forward. Here is a positive photo of lubrication progress.

And yes we would like our own home rather than working out of the back of my van.

 

Lovely piece of engineering!

Thanks for sharing this photo!