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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    You are asking the rest of us?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2019
  2. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Hydraulic vs electric tug of war ?
     
  3. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    possibly it has had a special dispensation on the axle loading when those locos have visited , in many cases the tour engine comes off at BL then might work LE to Minehead to turn, or use the triangle .
     
  4. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    The WSR has had red route locos as part of its home fleet in the past, including Raveningham Hall.
    My understanding gleaned from last time this was gone round was that work was done to raise the WSR to red route status, but in the intervening years lack of maintenance has lead to deterioration, and withdrawing of red route status has merely bought the WSR a little more time to deal with those issues.
     
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  5. WSR97

    WSR97 New Member

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    I remember Mark Smith telling me when I first started as a volunteer in 1997 that the line's axle loading had recently been increased to 23 tons
     
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  6. AnthonyTrains2017

    AnthonyTrains2017 Well-Known Member

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    Electric?
     
  7. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Diesel Hydraulic ( Hymec) Diesel electric ( class 33)
     
  8. DragonHandler

    DragonHandler Well-Known Member

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    That could break the vans in the middle. :D
     
  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Like the famous tug of war between HMS Rattler & HMS Alecto to (allegedly) demonstrate the superiority of the screw propeller
     
  10. Catchpoint

    Catchpoint New Member

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    This would have made it a double red route in GWR/Western Region days with the Kings’ axle loading of 22 long tons
    10 cwt. Interestingly the Kings’ power classification “Special” was not shown on the route availability red discs
    in contrast to all other locomotives of lesser power.
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Something that puzzles me in discussion about "red route" status and similar in the context of a preserved line, is that the discussion never seems to mention speed.

    My understanding is that when considering the impact of a locomotive on, as an example, a structure like a bridge, there are three main factors: the static axle load, the weight per unit length, and the dynamic hammer blow. Two of those are the same regardless of speed, but the hammer blow varies with the square of the speed (all else being equal). Given that the line had - AFAIK - a pre-preservation line speed of about 50mph, the hammer blow from any given loco will be four times higher than the same loco at 25mph.

    Presumably then, when there is talk about "restoring the line to red route status", what is meant is "restoring it to be able to take red dot locos at no higher than 25mph" - which is not the same as would have been required pre-preservation to have run them at up to 50mph?

    I'm sure the relevant people on the railway have a good understanding of the current status of their structures and what are viable loads - but I suspect using phraseology like "restoring red route status" probably has more meaning as a marketing / campaign phrase than a technical description. Or am I missing something?

    Tom
     
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  12. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Indeed, I believe I made a similar point last time round, and possibly someone else did the time before that!... :rolleyes:
     
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  13. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    When the 8f ran it was a blue route hence the tender only being half full. The work was done after that, 6960 is a red loco and it was one of the reasons it went on loan to the SVR in a swap at the time for 7802 which is blue.
     
  14. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    The debate over blue route or red route has been very long running inside the WSR and the outcome in my humble opinion is a key part to the future of the WSR. The lack of a clear, definitive strategy and indeed an open and optical plan has caused much confusion for years and is only increased by a number of ‘line inspections’ which all seem to give a differing picture (although most of the actual results are never published even to WSR people). I take the point about speed, it’s been discussed around the WSR many times, as has the fact that some of the people who have been around since the 80s/90s have stated that all the original bridges were reinforced with concrete underlays in the lines preservation era (I was told as a part of routine winter maintenance over a number of years).

    I have been critical about a number of the current PLC Chairman’s actions but I will agree with him on two points:

    1. The WSR needs to be a red route, it needs to be able to take larger engines as they attract paying customers. Flying Scotsman is a case in point. I understand some peoples view is that it was a Blue route and in the ideal world the WSR should be an authentic country branch line railway and no more. But those people as dedicated railway enthusiasts cannot afford to subsidise the running of the WSR, its annual financial deficient is too large. The WSR needs to be a top level Heritage Railway attraction in the UK top 5 or it can’t sustain its 20 mile length as the costs are too high. It can and should still be a country branch line but it needs to be much more as well.

    2. The line does need infrastructure work over a period of years going forward, it is known that number of bridges need expensive repairs and Stogumber bank has a potential slippage issue as well as other problems along the line. As usual the communication coming from the WSR Management is patchy at best but it has stated in the last 12 months a number of figures as an ongoing additional annual cost of £500k, £250k and recently £400k. I agree with the general opinion it will be a 6 figure sum, without the money the WSR will either have to be shortened (its known that the Council would be very happy to sell the valuable MD site) so it becomes a choice of which half to close or as the PLC Vice-Chairman recently said closed all together and turned into a cycle path.

    The answer is simple, the WSR needs more people, volunteer and paying (not helped currently by a negative culture) and more money (not helped currently by a bad organisational structure and an exclusive culture). Whether you agree with my last sentence or not look at the facts. 2019 saw a reduction of paying passengers and income, it’s not known by exactly how much by as no figures have been announced and no accounts have been issued for nearly 2 years now but some WSR press releases have confirmed this and the PLC Chairman is on record as saying that that finances are so poor that nobody will lend it money if they knew how bad it was. The PLC took on a new loan recently for an unknown amount of money, over an unknown period for an unknown reason. The loan was secured against all WSR assets so it can’t be a small sum. The fund raising effort for the infrastructure work has been a great effort with some positive blind faith by the people contributing. However it fell a long way short and it’s a drop in the ocean if the WSR needs £400k per annum for the foreseeable future and lastly the large scale fund raising structure needed hasn't happened. The facts are the WSR is currently bringing in less money (partly offset by removing a number of staff and reducing costs) and it is not fund raising to the level needed to keep itself going. Borrowing money will only make the situation worse but it seems its today the only way of keeping the wheels turning in the immediate term.

    The worrying thing for me is where is the much talked about plan, the stake holders are being told nothing, there have been many contradictive statements made and the accounts and AGM has been delayed a number of times. In my humble opinion the people of the WSR not demanding the answers are only sticking their heads in the sand, the ship has to be turned around at some stage as nothing appears to have changed other than some no-doubt well intentioned playing around at the edges. The finances are clear in my view, unless there is a fairy god mother the money will run out if the current course remains, it’s just a matter of when. I’m sure the forthcoming AGM will show a “we have it under control” picture, but if its anything like the last 6 AGM’s I have attended it will be a stage managed affair which gives little or no real information. Perhaps for the sake of the WSR its time to be open and honest and engage the stake holders and more importantly potential stake holders who are the only people who can help the WSR survive, or if that can’t happen just double the summer time weekly passenger numbers paying a fare every week before March 2020 !!
     
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  15. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    The WSR is on Inside Out West any moment now (19.45 21.10.19)
     
  16. paul1609

    paul1609 New Member

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    Had arrived at Wittersham Road this morning. We have hired in coaches for our Santa season from other railways for a few years now. Its a very important event for the K&ESR as it sets us up through the winter and its a win/win situation if the "donor" railway wouldn't be using it in December. Its the second year from the WSR prior to that we hired them from the East Lancs believe theres another carriage coming from another railway as well. It will be well looked after here (with its new brake blocks).
     

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    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  17. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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    Given the date on which the loan was recorded at Companies House, the arrangement would have been going through at the time of the stakeholder's meeting yet there was no mention of it. At the same meeting, it was said that nobody would lend the WSR any new money and yet, there was no request for stakeholders to purchase new shares.

    There are quite a few people with their heads in the sand or somewhere equally as dark.
     
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  18. free2grice

    free2grice Part of the furniture Friend

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    GWR Pannier tank 7752 will haul the first departure from BL this morning. Load 5. That'll make a tremendous sound around the Quantock hills. <BJ>
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  19. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    I was not able to attend the EGM in August ( I was in hospital at the time, it was the first PLC AGM/EGM I
    have failed to attend for a decade. )

    I have been told that the motion ( ie the reason for calling the EGM ) in effect delaying the AGM
    by six months was passed with only one dissenting vote from the floor. I ( and I believe ) others
    had cast votes by post ahead of time against the motion. My reason being that in the
    absence of any financials given for 12 months I had no information on which to make a
    judgement.

    Presumably the Auditors had not ' signed off ' a set of accounts for the 15 month year ending March
    2019. ( Because they regarded.the Company as not representing a 'going concern' ).

    The only issued statement I have seen post the event emanated ( IMHO an in judicious one )
    from the Vice Chair at the meeting to the effect that if "you do not agree to the EGM motion the
    Railway will fold ". I assume that this implied threat was what led to the overwhelming show
    of hands. This inter alia avoided any embarrassment counting the postal votes might have
    occasioned.

    I also understand that a statement to the effect that cash balances were c.£500K was made
    at the meeting. AFAIK nobody questioned "whose cash is it ? " eg a loan from the bank,
    monies due to suppliers etc.

    I appreciate that people such as Messrs Fraser and Norman are extremely concerned: there
    will be an AGM in December, they need to decide as Shareholders what 'line' they wish to
    take. ( Mr Norman must know that any Company Chair and Secretary will inevitably
    endeavour to organise an AGM to cause the Board the minimum distress. ) It is
    incumbent upon Shareholders if they have concerns, to make those concerns known.
    Similarly if they believe they have been provided with insufficient financial information
    they should request clarification.

    Presumably at the August EGM the Shareholders attending did not have any concerns over the
    information proffered ie the Board could believe their actions were justified/approved.

    Regarding the August 20 statement on Companies House wrt the loan, I know no more than
    Mr Fraser. I assume the de facto mortgage from that date represented a consolidation of
    previous loans. The effect being that the Plc ( and hence the Railway) is 'in hock' to the Bank.

    I am in my eightieth year. I have for many years been a nuisance at PLC AGMs. I have
    always endeavoured to offer what I perceive to be solutions to the 'concerns' I have
    raised. Whether this is how it appears to others or not, the concept is undoubtedly
    correct. It is not however I think for eighty year olds to be grappling with
    the Plc's challenges: anno domino becomes inhibiting, let alone that the signal box
    in the sky regrettably hovers.


    Messrs Fraser, Norman et al. Why don't you prepare ( with the information
    available to you ) a strategic plan and lay it before the PLC Board. I do think
    it's 'put up or shut up' time. Venting frustrations on NP may be good for the soul,
    less so for the Railway

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  20. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    Adding to Mike Rowe's posting to an extent.
    I was at the stakeholder meeting (I presume the one at Oake is the one referenced.) I distinctly recall the "cash call" either by buying shares or making a donation via one of the two charities present. The WSR plc the WSRA and the Steam Trust all had tables at the back of the hall set up for the purpose of taking money.
    Donations for the winter works to the charities are closing in on £80,000 as I write this. This number will be uplifted by whatever gift aid the charities can claim on top.
    It's no secret that the WSR needs more so please give generously by whatever means you feel most comfortable with.
     

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