Betton Grange

Probably the locomotive but who knows or cares apart from the "ultras".

 

Just incase anyone is completely deluded, there are those that like GWR designs as well as LMS, SR etc etc. Shocking I know....

In all seriousness, being a spotter from the diesel era, the notion of tribal affiliation to locos from a certain region of the big four or earlier is alien to me. It would be saying I like class 37s if allocated to Gateshead or Thornaby but not Cardiff or Landore.

Having said that, there are certain steam classes or types that I find easier on the eye than others. I realise this is subjective and personal to me but for instance, I've often thought a Duchess looks in proportion and easy on the eye but say a Princess, not so. Each to their own.

 

True, a class 3 could be a jinty, a midland 3F, a stainer 2-6-2 tank. We know what they are anyway!

 

The LNWR had a complete disdain for classification for most of its existence.
The locos we all call Jumbos were officially "6'6'' straight link passenger engines (renewed)".
Eventually they grudgingly introduced classification for the 0-8-0 locos only...
Perhaps necessary as the G class had officially been the "8-wheel-coupled Coal 20½in Large Boiler Non-superheat Locomotive Class."
But then the LNW was a Company, not a big train set. They only ever lettered a few locos with the company initials: they were the Premier Line after all!

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imo all the ex GWR 4-6-0s are easy to differentiate .

you needed good eyesight to distinguish between rebuilt Scot, Jub and Pat when it was coming head on at 60mph+. not many could do it .

the Southern were all Spamcans to me

 

To be honest, I’m not sure I could tell the difference between those and a Black 5 just from a side on view ...

Tom (ducks and runs for cover ...)

 

Black 5 always black, 6 foot wheels, always 4000 gallon tender. Rebuilt Scot, original Fowler type cab, deep buffer beam, either red or green (very briefly black just after the war) smoke deflectors. Rebuilt Patriot, very similar, later type stainer cab, the two rebuilt Jubilees, pretty much identical, best identified from the numbers, and only two of them. All three had 6 foot 9 wheels and liveries as per the Scots, also all three had the same tenders as Black 5s. Unrebuilt Jubilees, no smoke deflectors, similar to a black 5 but 6 foot 9 wheels and slightly taller chimney, liveries as the Scots and Patriots and a variety of tenders, mostly 4000 gallon ones but some had a shortened 3500 gallon Staniet tender (always thought those looked a bit odd somehow) some had Midland type Fowler tenders and a few had a straight high sided tender

Another group of locos I find a bit confusing are SR 4-6-0s,btw. S15s have small wheels, Arthur's larger ones and that's about it for me! Runs and hides too!

 

And all North Western 0-8-0s were just called Super Ds!

 

Wheel diameter is a hard one from photos, particularly at larger sizes - hence I think why at a glance I struggle between Jubilees, Rebuilt Scot and Black 5s...

FWIW of the three types of Southern two cylinder 4-6-0s, wheel diameter is nonetheless a distinguisher - large (N15 / King Arthur); medium (H15); small (S15). I think in GWR terms they would roughly equate to Saint / Hall / Grange.

The Urie and Maunsell variants of each are most easily distinguished by cab design, the Maunsell ones having smaller cabs in which the side sheets wrap seamlessly into the roof; the Urie cabs have distinctly separate sides and roof. On the Urie S15s, there is also a marked step in the running plate over the cylinders, but on the Maunsell ones the running plate is all one height.

From side on, a notable feature of the S15s is an unequal wheel spacing, with the leading and middle axles close together, and the trailing axle set well back.

The H15s are a bit of a minefield since the build history was complex, in part because of the notional origins as rebuilds of Drummond 4-6-0s. Some, but not all, had a distinctly massive appearance at the front accentuated by a small smoke box door; the boilers weren’t the same as the N15 / S15s. Generally though if it’s a Southern 4-6-0 but doesn’t look quite familiar, good bet is it’s an H15!

Tenders - all bets are off because they swapped around so much. Pretty much any of them could be seen with eight wheeled “water carts” (double bogie inside bearings); Urie pattern double bogie tenders (with flared sides); Maunsell pattern (with flat sides) or six wheel Maunsell type (which reduced the length suitable for shorter turntables off the Western section).

Tom

 

Not the one I’m currently mentioning in passing in an article I’m writing, which is apparently an “eight wheeled four cylinder compound coal engine”. (I do like those descriptive LNWR names!)

Tom

 

Thanks Tom, you didn't mention the N15X, but I can tell those apart quite easily! On the LMS ones mentioned, a give away is the fact that only the black 5s didn't have driving wheel splashers as the running plate was high enough to clear them, the other three did have these

 

A few were built as compounds and a few more were originally 2-8-0s but all ended up as the familiar super D type, as in 49395

 

The one I’m writing about spread itself across quite a large area of Buxton, so I suspect never became a Super D (unless the LNWR did a bit of creative rebuilding a la LNER “Grand Parade”!)

Tom

 

Well, I did say grudgingly!
Of course with the "official" class system being cumbersome and/or confusing, people instead adopted an unofficial one.

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The LNWR did go in for "renewal" of engines (aka take off numberplate, put on new engine, scrap old engine) and also had no qualms at some periods about mixing up bits of engines, etc. The locos "identity" was just for accounts purposes.
I've always also appreciated their complete scorn for such things as thematic naming of engines ("just use the name of the latest one we're scrapped") and their unconcern about using very silly names ("problem", "experiment"...)

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A.k.a. "handle crank" naming or naming by rote. Sadly L.M.S. naming became "handle crank" when imagination died as had happened on the G.W.R. some time previously.

 

The main difference between the Royal Scots and rebuilt Patriots was that the latter had shallow buffer beams - as did the rebuilt Jubilees; 46106 with its straight windshields however could cause confusion until you noted the double chimney and heard the more throat exhaust.

 

That presumes tribal affiliation doesn't appear within the diesel ethos. After all why differentiate between a Class 37 and a Class 31 as both have the same engine albeit wrapped in a different body style; why partisanship between a Class 50 and a Class 52 as both produce the same horsepower albeit transmitting the power to the wheels in a different way. Partisanship is all part of the hobby whether you are drawn to steam traction with support for a specific region / railway company, diesel traction with support for a specific locomotive class or even - shock / horror ! - MU trainsets with their differing internal layouts. That's life !!

 

For many (most?) lines in the mid-Victorian era, the number or name plate was the physical embodiment of the loco in the capital stock list. So if an old engine was withdrawn and a replacement built on the capital stock, transfer of the nameplate was the signifier of continuity of capital existence. It did mean however that names became jumbled between classes over time. It also led to a degree of confusion when old locos were withdrawn but remained in service (i.e. duplicated). On the LSWR at least in the earlier Beattie era, locos had names but not numbers, and it wasn’t unknown to have two locos with the same name, which might be referred to as, say, “Bison” and “the old engine Bison”. Adams introduced a scheme for duplicating numbers which after a degree of working out became less confusing, though even there, locos of the same class could have widely scattered numbers. It seems such practices died out round about the First World War, presumably as railways found more modern ways to keep track of their stock.

The SE&CR society has an interesting document online that is the Ashford repair book; if you look up a particular locomotive number you will often see an entry showing it withdrawn at a particular date, and then a new locomotive appearing with the same number a few months later.

Tom

 

*Ahem* Dons pedant hat

The exception being the first batch of Eastleigh-built Maunsell King Arthurs, which had Urie cabs. Just to keep people confused.

These days, in the wild it's much easier for those confused by Southern 4-6-0s. If it's 777, it's a King Arthur. If it's black it's a Urie S15. If it has a Belpaire box it's Lord Nelson. Everything else is a Maunsell S15. And when 499 appears in LSWR goods green it will be the most distinctive of the lot, so you won't have any trouble remembering that it's a Urie S15 too.