Llangollen Railway

I suspect there may be two problems at Llangollen - firstly I don't get the impression that its passenger figures really match its ambitions, so that over the years its contracting operations have supported it. Sceondly, those contracting operations have probably gone into steep decline of late following the Patriot problems and whatever restitution became due at their expense. That will be overcome in time, I'm sure but the fundamental question of whether the railway itself can be made truly viable remains, in this context it remains to be seen whether the extension was a good idea or just another millstone around its neck.

 

I assumed the engineering business was financially separate from the railway, is this not the case?

 

I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that they separate entities under the overall PLC umbrella.

 

Why is the trust appealing for money to basically prop the PLC up?

Whilst the £90k debt should be paid (which is fine), the HRA issued a document with guidelines that railway charities should be following - stating that they must maintain independence from any associated companies and they are not to use their funds to cover loss making operations. Whilst I feel for the volunteers, on face value this appears to be contradicting these guidelines?

 

As I put in my original posting, the Trust wishes to repay a loan to the PLC. It is possible that the loan is on demand - a liability of £104,776 is showing in the accounts as a current debtor at 1 December 2018. It is also likely, with the PLC in extremis, that the PLC has no choice but to demand the repayment and thus the Trust could find itself in difficulties if it failed to pay (the PLC has guaranteed the Trust's unspecified liabilities up to £125,000 (stated in the accounts), but said guarantee is presumably now worthless. In general terms though, and partly one suspects because of the largely common directors, the structure is rather incestuous. Not only do the parties need to come up with a go forward plan (so they are not in this situation again next year), they also need to sort out the corporate governance.

 

For years we've had postings along the lines that there's something in the water in Somerset affecting the WSR, and that all other heritage railways are much better organised. Apparently it's not always true.

 

• LLANGOLLEN RAILWAY PLC
  02716476 - Incorporated on 20 May 1992

The Engineering is a department of the PLC, not a separate entity. Contract engineering losses fall back on the PLC, without the protection of a separate legal liabilty company.

Some heritage railways have a similar arrangement, some a separate company.

Patrick

 

It is the engineering department where the financial problems have come from. As well as the well talked about issues with the Patriot group, I believe there have also been other fixed price contracts where the costs have been much higher than originally estimated.

In reply to the earlier comment about passenger numbers, throughout the summer season the midweek trains are often full or very nearly where it is tricky to find a spare seat (particularly on the 2nd and 3rd trip when the afternoon tea option is very popular). This is partly down to some excellent work getting large group bookings from cruise/other tour operators.

Previously the engineering business has probably been more profitable than running trains, unfortunately over the last couple of years if anything running trains has been propping up the engineering operation.

 

Looking on the website there are 13 operating days for February 10 of which are down as dmu only,i can understand trying to cut costs but i think they will lose a lot of passengers also.

 

There is no point in running steam at a rough cost of £600 per day in certain Winter months when the number of paying passengers doesn't even cover this.

We have two industrial locos, both in full working order , available for hire.
They are not suitable for our line for various reasons, and the revenue from hire fees will help us to finish 7754.
This is mainly a boiler job, the bottom half of the loco being ready to run.

Bob.

 

Maybe it is me, but it seems like a lot of the concerns that were flagged up in the Flying Scotsman report are coming home to rooster. Small scale, cottage industries that are financially precarious with very weak record keeping and often complex ownership and management structures. A small down turn in passengers here, a sudden unexpected cost there, loss of staff etc, seems to blow a line or related business off course.

The wsr is one, peak rail is another, wcr had plenty of problems when their management came under scrutiny, dartmoor etc going into administration.

That said, I do get the sense that some people almost want a line to go under so they can parade blowing their own trumpet around say 'I told you so'.

 

Depends why a bailout is needed .... and circumstances can vary wildly. Let's say in 'case 1', some seemingly totally unconnected Supreme Court ruling on an arcane aspect of insurance law shifted the goalposts and consequently, a couple of years later, the practical outcome caught a line's board 'on the hop' and in 'case 2' things go belly up after a line's board has ignored repeated warnings and overriden all and any objections. I'm pretty certain those two would produce very different responses.

 

If we take say the sdr toilet floor incident, or the runaway train on the FR. Both were near misses that ought to wake up the heritage railway industry but they probably won't. Both have the classic small steps being missed time and time again.

All the warning signs are there, poor management, poor record keeping and so on. Whether it is the problems with the Patriot build, Flying Scotsman, near misses with h&s the same story is being told time and time again about the way railways are run.

 

I was one of a booked conducted tour of the Llangollen in April last. Some of it struck me as being pretty good; the DMU guys have an excellent set-up (I'm biased, I was on a tour to Germany with 3 of them a couple of years ago), and the carriage works looked good as well.
BUT . .
The Loco engineering side left me very underwhelmed. Given that we (a mixed party) were booked for a tour of the workshop, didn't it occur to the manager (if there is one) to keep the staff's lockers closed. The comments written on the insides would make a squaddie blush. I can't say that the people there looked very pleased to see us, either. They were about to run a wartime w/e with 2 steam engines, one of them a BR Standard!
It will be a real shame if they have to call it a day, but I think the Engineering side will bear most of the blame if it does.
Pat

 

I hope the financial matters are resolved, as it would be a shame to see the line get into any trouble as a result.

I've visit the line twice in recent years. First was during a holiday in June a few years ago, when they had just a DMU running. I only did one trip as the timetable had a lot of layover, and it didn't seem there was much to do during those times. I wasn't particularly perturbed by it, but the full price fare (or one return being a pound less I recall?) may have put people off, as there weren't many passengers that day and a group ahead of me inquired about prices and swiftly left.

My second visit was to their Gala with Sir Keith Park (I think it was) the following October. Plenty of movements and things to watch and ride; I would have liked a freight set for variety, but then I am biased towards that sort of stuff! Staff on both visits were particularly friendly and knowledgeable, so I hope for their sake things look up soon.

 

I don't know where I read it now but I believe some extra work on Morayshire is required that they're having to eat up the costs of.

 

This makes four contract jobs I am aware of that required additional work, either at Llangollen or "somewhere else".

 

Morayshire is to be removed from Llangollen and placed into storage, due to the financial issues of the PLC. Currently Bo'ness doesn't have the capacity in either space or manpower to receive the engine in an unfinished condition to complete the overhaul.