West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Similarly, I've only seen token exchanges go wrong (thankfully not seriously) when the signalman or equivalent has been stood on a platform, not when they have been at track level.

The other factor that makes a "specially-constructed balcony" a significantly more dangerous idea than eithet track level or a station platform is that the signalman needs to be able to move sharply out of the way, without obstruction, if they do decide the exchange is too dangerous to proceed with. Any balcony that is too small to allow free movement of 2 to 3 metres in any direction is extremely dangerous - it's a stupidly risky idea which nobody involved in operations themselves would be likely to approve of.

 

And, with great respect, your two comments are the kind of 'We're all doomed' stuff we have come to expect. 120 exchanges are featured in the montage. No-one injured. I have been doing this for 40 years now (gulp, really!) and suffered one injury long ago with a Webb-Thompson staff on the Bluebell - a three foot long steel pole wholly unlike the lightweight aluminium tokens and specially-designed exchange hoops pictured here. (W-T staffs now no longer used at the Bluebell.) The evidence is that, done at appropriate low speed with proper training and a clear understanding on method, as enginemen and signalmen achieve get during training, there isnt a problem.

Unless, of course, you have evidence to the contrary?

Robin

 

At lest neither of you have resorted to the "Health and Safety gone mad" cliché beloved of change resisters.

 

When I joined British Railways in 1986 token exchanges on the move had just been banned by BR. That was on the basis of evidence of harm but related to line speeds considerably higher than 25mph or the 10mph heritage lines of my acquaintance impose for token exchanges.

Unless we focus on evidence-based assessments of H&S risks, we risk unnecessary changes to heritage practices based on 'Oooo, that looks dangerous' quality of assessment. On that basis, wooden bodied carriages, and locomotives carrying around live fire, pressurised steam vessels and with exposed hot pipes in the cab would be for the chop.

The current ORR mantra is a 1950's experience with 21st century standards of safety, which seems fine to me.

Robin

 

I think you are making a bit of a meal out of this Paul. “Health and safety” is really just about risk assessment: likelihood times impact. By virtue of the fact that on most railways there will be thousands of token exchanges every year, the data on likelihood of an issue are pretty robust. By all means railways should risk assess their operations, but don’t assume the sky will fall on your head with every single thing.

Ultimately for a token exchange, the riskiest scenario is a double exchange where the loco is travelling too fast; in that situation, the signalman is ultimately in control by the simple virtue of being able to refuse the exchange - provided of course they have space to just step back. Easier done if at ground or platform level with space all around them than on some specifically constructed balcony you are suggesting. I think in pretty much any case there will be a platform near the signal box if the desire is to ensure more even heights.

Edit: @Robin Moira White said essentially the same thing.

Tom

 

I was only suggesting provision of balconies where a platform did not exist. There is one picture which shows a token being exchanged with a signaller at ground level where there is a platform a few strides away. Other pictures show footplate staff hanging on with apparent difficulty whilst leaning down to exchange tokens. It just needs a bit of thought to reduce the possibility of someone hurting themselves

 

Steve / Peter
Any comments from a Drivers point of view about the use of the "Pulpit" at Newbridge NYMR?

 

Quite right. In 40 years of heritage signalling I have 'refused' an exchange exactly three times for excessive speed, all some years ago. On each occasion I have retreated to the box and put the kettle on. Ultimately the enginemen need to collect or give up a token/staff/tablet. On two of those three occasions the engineman arrived with profuse apologies for misjudging their speed. Enough said. Only on one occasion was there a dispute which had to be sent 'up the tree'.

Robin

 

Mid you, I admire the chap who tried this (seen at Coombe Jcn in 1972)

I can recall in 'staff' days that we once did a 2-man 'fast exchange' for a non-stop Down train at BA - one to catch from the engine, then me to give up the new staff. As Robin has intimated, if it looked as if it was going to 'go wrong' then you just got out of the way.

It was not unknown in the 'old days' with non-stop trains for the signalman to concentrate on simply handing up the 'new' staff/token and leave the train-crew to throw out the old one onto the platform. It was considered more important to get the first part right, to avoid the need for the driver to slam on the brakes and have to send the fireman running back to collect the missing item, than worry about having to hunt in the bushes for the 'old' item so that you could clear back the previous section. But not really the sort of thing to do at a WSR station as you might risk hitting a few waiting passengers in the process!

 

I think you are misinterpreting what you have seen - photos can give a false impression. Do PM identifying the photo(s) you have identified and I will have a look at it/them.

Robin

 

And, in the spirit of risk assessment and the ALARP principle, what is the cost (in financial, resources diverted from other activities, and heritage terms) of introducing such a balcony? And, having considered this, what are the benefits in terms of incidents avoided?

While I’ve no problems with asking questions, it ill behoves you or I, who don’t volunteer as either footplate crew or signallers, to try to second guess those with that experience when they’ve clearly answered those questions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

There were other issues to consider which may no longer be relevant on heritage railways...

At Bath Junction the signal-box was adjacent to the Up S&DJR line. Down S&DJR goods train used to 'charge' the bank on their way south and the train engine collected the single-line tablet by mean of the Whitaker automatic pick-up apparatus. However the 'bank engine staff' had to be given up by hand to the banking engine, which meant that the signalman had to stand in the 6-foot to do it. One former signalman recalled the perils of standing there at night, unable to see any loose ropes or tarpaulins which might be hanging from wagons and flapping past his face in the dark :-( Fortunately at least the layout meant that there was no risk of an Up train passing behind him at the same time.

 

I can't believe people watched 12mins of token exchange photos...

 

At the last count approaching 300 views...but they are great pictures.

Robin

 

Interesting to hear different perspectives on this. On the NYMR the greatest risk is seen as being where the signalman is on the ground next to a moving loco. It’s probably not as bad with a pannier or other loco with a low footplate but aBR standard is another matter. The next most dangerous is on the platform at Levisham as there are members of the public in close proximity. The pulpit at New Bridge is considered to be the safest, other than coming to a dead stand, which you have to do with single manned diesels.

Edit: Further to this subject, with T.S.&T., is was always interesting with double headed trains when the signalman had to show the staff to the lead loco and then give it a ticket and collect one then quickly get organised to give and receive the ticket from the second loco. So much simpler now that the lead loco only carries a token. Less fun, perhaps!

 

As a former footplateman, the only time I have been concerned for my own safety is when carrying out a tablet exchange at ground level, because when you think of it, both your hands are in use, one holding out the token, the other to take the new token, so you in effect have to somehow wedge yourself against the cab and hope you don't fall out, and if its just you and the driver, no third man or cleaner, you don't have anyone that can grab you should you overbalance, if the signalman is on the platform, its not quite so bad, as they are nearer your height, then of course you stand the risk of joe public, or that person wanting " that" shot, who might well end up wearing the token,

 

I must confess to having given up before the end. I would prefer a gallery through which one can scroll at one's own choice of speed, with the whole lot visible on a page of thumbnails. But that is not to say they shouldn't have bothered.

 

Our railway uses staff and ticket very infrequently. Could somebody help by explaining why tickets were issued to pilot engine drivers when the rules state(d) that they must be shown the token and have a complete understanding with the train engine driver as to the movement? I would have thought that these tickets were strictly controlled and only issued where absolutely necessary, whereas this seems to bring in an element of duplication.

Also when, and why, did the mainline rule change to the lead loco carrying the token?

Thanks in advance.

Ps the Korean railways exchange tokens at 50mph using a special gauntlet!

 

I've no problem with the pulpit at Newbridge, but life would certainly be difficult without it.

My only quibble there is the need to collect a bit of paper to authorise the driver to pass the platform end Stop Board at Pickering in order to accomodate the train in the platform. It seems to me that this is now a long term tempory arrangement that has been forgotten about but I guess there may be more pressing signalling needs that need to be attended to before this is tackled.

Peter

 

Sometime in the early 1970's. As Tom (@Jamessquared) has mentioned above once diesel traction was well established it was common for doubleheaded locos to be worked in multiple and driven from the leading cab. As the signaller was not to know this it lead to some confusion so the rule was simplified to cover all eventulaties. This photo at Ardlui in 1970 shows an example of a double headed train being worked in tandem, where to token is being collected as per the old rule book by the manned second loco. But had the locos been working in mulitple then only the lead loco would have been manned. On the Highland main line in this era the "Royal Highlander" was regularly worked by tripple headed Type 2s, so you had even more scope for uncertainty as to where the token would be carried.

Peter