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S&D Railway Trust

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Andy Norman, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. mikechant

    mikechant Member

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    There is a small ray of hope in the fact that under current circumstances Lloyds might wish to avoid being seen collapsing a major regional tourist attraction, it would attract a lot of negative publicity for them when they and the other banks are already under pressure re the government backed loans scheme. They might consider the relatively small and very uncertain (under current circumstances) financial gains from selling the railway's assets to be not worth the flak.
     
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  2. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Hopefully you might be correct. However, at present it appears, that many tourist attractions in West Somerset, the rest of the UK and way beyond will fail or at the least struggle to recover. One more would probably not make that many waves.
     
  3. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    That does presuppose that the decline of the existing WSR company was sudden, i.e. a crash. However is it not perfectly possible for the old company to continue trading whilst the new company is set up and a new LRO sought, then, when the new company has its LRO, the old company is wound up?
     
  4. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    In which case what need is there for a new company?
     
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  5. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    I think the idea would be that a single charity would be formed and then hold 51% of the shares of the 'new plc'

    The same outcome could possibly be achieved with the current plc if the charities were willing to merge and they were able to contact all shareholders and get them to donate their shares and/or voting rights.

    Keith
     
  6. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Not all- it only needs 51% including the charity shareholdings. The Festiniog Railway Co. is nowadays entirely controlled by the Ff&WHR Trust but still supposedly has a number of minority shareholders who must either be untraceable; incredibly elderly; or will have inherited their small stakes from pre-preservation owners.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
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  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    You can no longer get an LRO. The modern equivalent is a Transport & Works Order, which is an entirely different thing. And hugely more expensive.
     
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  8. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    [Last word presumably accounts=accountants]

    I agree with the first part of your above post, Martin, but the rest of your post (not quoted) ignores the substantial powers of the Administrator of a Company in insolvency to overturn any previous attempts by the Company to put assets beyond the reach of the Creditors/Administrator. These can all be 'set aside', and I spent a couple of years doing just this some years ago.

    So for JJP to transfer assets, they can all be 'undone'. Usually this is at the behest of HMR&C, but a Bank having a charge would also do this.

    You can possibly validly do this before any financial difficulties might arise, and at inception of an organisation; I am sure many of you will recall the 'Wight Loco Fund' that owned O2 'Calbourne' and 'Invincible' and the carriages, in case the operation of the railway between Havenstreet and Wootton folded. But that is not the current situation with the WSR PLC, as it is already in financial difficulties.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  9. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

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    Without making any presumptions about the future of the WSR, and as a more academic question, in the past light railway orders (LRO) have been transferred from one company to another. As an example the Bluebell's original LRO was obtained by British Railways, and then transferred to the Bluebell Railway. More recently the original Welsh Highland Railway LROs of 1922/3 were transferred to the Festiniog Railway Company in 1995 - see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/861/made. Is it still possible for an existing LRO to be transferred today?

    Steve B
     
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  10. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Before the TWA a Light Railway (Transfer) Order could be made. I doubt that’s possible any more. In 2009 the South Devon Railway had to obtain a Transport & Works Act Order before they could complete their purchase of the freehold from Dart Valley Railway plc in 2010. Until then they operated under a lease from DVR - which in itself required a LRO in 1992. No objections to the TWA Order were received however the freehold purchase had been agreed in 2001. Haven’t a clue why it took so long.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  11. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Well, of course, what isn't more expensive these days, where officialdom is concerned. However, that doesn't necessarily stop it happening.
    The people in charge of the WSR have seen fit to alienate a large part of its supporter base, whilst not putting into place any other sources of funding at a time when the railway needed a considerable amount of money spending on it, and that was before it was shut down by the government for an indefinite period. The probability that there will either be a collapse or, at least, a major restructuring of the company is now very high. There are other options than to keep calm and carry on handing over the dosh. Saying that these are "too difficult, not going to happen" ignores similar efforts that achieved the almost impossible, like the raising of the purchase price for 4110.
     
  12. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    First, there was the Light Railway Order, granted to permit building new railways (Basingstoke & Alton, for example). Then, we pesky preservationists pitched up wanting to buy bits of BR. The drill was for BR to get a LRO for their property (downgrading it) and the new operator would then obtain a Transfer Order. In 1977 the Mid Hants was the first to get a LRO direct, without the intermediate stage. (The MHR LROs include the powers BR needed to sell / lease the line to MHR.) All ancient history, in a sense, but might be relevant if the holder of a LRO needed rescue.
    Pat
    (Edited to correct date.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  13. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    IIRC the WSR got its LRO via the BR route.

    I know that the L&BR are having to go down the T&W Order route for their new extension southwards to Blackmoor and beyond and the amount of background work and paperwork required is unbelievable, although admittedly it is for a new-build line rather than something which exists already.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I can't answer that one but if the FR could do it in 1995, then possibly you can. Could it be done under the Interpretation Act? We need a learned friend to answer this one?:)
     
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  15. cav1975

    cav1975 Member

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    On the Isle of Wight we had the "Wight Locomotive Society" (a non charitable unincorporated society) which was founded in 1966 to buy a locomotive. It managed to buy Calbourne and a few carriages and wagons. After the move to Havenstreet in 1971 "The Isle of Wight Railway Co. Ltd." was set up as a company limited by guarantee to operate the railway in a way which protected the members and allowed it to acquire a Light Railway Order.

    In due course we realised that we had two membership organisations and one railway. We also realised that failure of the company would almost certainly cause failure of the society so was giving minimal real benefit but causing (minor) organisational difficulties. So, by agreement, the financially sound Wight Locomotive Society transferred all its assets and liabilities into the also financially sound Railway Company. We also adopted a policy that we would not accept privately owned locos and rolling stock and gradually acquired those that were on site. This included a number of wagons, Invincible (which was purchased from the estate of the late owner); terrier W11 (which was purchased from Butlins) and Ajax which was purchased from Henry Frampton Jones.

    These two decisions have left us with just one organisation owning and able to manage the railway effectively.

    We were fortunate that we did not, for many reasons, have to raise serious capital so did not need to create a company able to issue shares. We did issue debentures at one stage but these have all now been redeemed, many by having the value donated to the railway.

    Nick
     
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  16. Matt78

    Matt78 Well-Known Member

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    cant think of a recent example but my best guess is that if Company B wanted to acquire operating rights on a line operated by Company A who held an LRO (and let’s say Company A was insolvent) then the residual powers of the LRO under Company A could and should be the subject of a Transfer Order to Company B. However the LRO may not cover all requirement for a new operation and there a separate TWO may also be required for these matters.

    Just my best guess

    Regards

    Matt
     
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  17. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    I imagine LRO applications already in progress at the time TWA was passed would have been allowed to continue. New legislation often allows ‘savings’ or transitional arrangements of this kind. The Caernarfon-Dinas section of the WHR was built under a LRO. Transfer from the liquidator of the land etc. of the old WHR Co. was also authorised in a LRO. However building it from Dinas to Porthmadog required a TWA Order.
     
  18. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    So solution is for the Council to withdraw the lease for the Washford site from WSR, and lease it directly to the S&D??!?!
    Perhaps they should threaten the whole line de facto, unless the Board resigns also.
     
  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    You can't just go round tearing up leases! What's that? Oh...
     
  20. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    How could the Council 'withdraw' a lease to which they are not a party?
     

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