If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,609
    Likes Received:
    11,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    first, only the shareholders can effect change , so what needs to happen is that the WSRA , and the Steam trust need to put out a public statement to the effect that they, as shareholders are concerned that the actions of the PLC are damaging the Railway, and that they if the PLC does not change direction, will using their combined shareholding ask for an EGM, The purpose to be to censure the board and to elect new members to the board , their remit will be to vote for a new chairman, and put right whats been found to have been done incorrectly, to put a stop to any action concerning evictions, and to allow those members who were in effect banned to appeal , and that safe guarding rules are not just decided, but fully implemented,
     
    dhpaul, Sunnieboy, MellishR and 2 others like this.
  2. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,185
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    What percentage of the shares do the WSRA/WSSRT hold?

    What percentage of shares are needed to call an EGM?

    I hear rumblings from the WSRA, but what are the views of the WSSRT? Given that a WSSRT Trustee is now a PLC director I suggest possibly supportive of the PLC

    While I understand not rocking the boat, I suggest that some firm pressure could be applied now by the WSRA & the WSSRT together to address some of the most pressing issues.
     
    MellishR and staffordian like this.
  3. staffordian

    staffordian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,501
    Likes Received:
    2,134
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    The Potteries
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    In among the pages of recycled opinions and consiracies there have been many posts offering solutions, valid observations and the like.

    But from what I can see, most if not all of those in a position to directly influence any positive change have said nothing or argued that the important short term aim is to preserve the status quo and think about possible changes later.

    I can't help thinking, as many do, that there might not be a later if the status quo is preserved.
     
    RichardBrum, dhpaul, ghost and 4 others like this.
  4. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Are we talking manager or owner/manager here? Or simply that peculiar owner who is not interested in the club itself or the game that is played but rather has seen an opportunity?

    We are all aware of "clubs" that get into difficulties and the situation where the supporters want someone with money to come along and spend money to allow them to continue to enjoy their hobby. Large city plots are worth so much money, and so it goes.

    So are the WSR supporters simply wanting a cash loaded benefactor who will simply allow them to continue unchanging and unchanged? Is this desperation so dire and desperate that any price is worth paying so long as, for individuals involved, their own valued little patch is not trodden upon? If the damage is elsewhere it doesn't matter so long as your favourite bit remains unsullied? The S & D Trust can be sacrificed then. Ends and means and all that.

    The WSR problems have been rumbling on for years, just look at the number of pages devoted to this troublesome outpost of the railway heritage industry. They have been told and advised to change the nature of their organisation and structures in order to survive. But they have taken little or no notice and given the amount of denial and excuse making issuing from some "supporters" things will not change unless forced. It appears that matters have been taken out of the hands of the supporting bodies and associations by the PLC and things are being forced, nature truly abhors a vacuum, and this willing and prolonged inaction has created a type of vacuum and you may not like what has been invited in to fill it. Some of you evidently do and others do not but for those of you who do remember that you might be the next S & D T. This was all largely avoidable but with the unwillingness of people to fund the operation, the revealing of some concerning financial practices, and other self inflicted wounds coupled with the fallout from the Covid-19 situation. The future is uncertain, bleakly so.
     
  5. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,609
    Likes Received:
    11,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    that was the point i made about the vicechair now having a seat on the board, but someone said he was asked because of his expertise, not because of the WSSRT's majority shareholding, but it does not take a genius to work out, if you want to nullify your main threat, you split it, so that should there be any pressure against your control, you can insist as a board member, they have to back you.
     
  6. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2020
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    799
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    (As in an earlier post) In the next few weeks or so? I remind you that the Plc (and the Railway) may not be there for that new Board you desire.

    The Railway - specifically the Plc - needs your money now.

    Steve
     
  7. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,609
    Likes Received:
    11,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Steve, if its that severe a problem, then surely the railway as it stands is already past saving, and the kindest thing would be to like you would do for a sick animal, put it out of its misery then allow a new venture, with a proper set up to start over with what can be salvaged,
     
  8. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2015
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    4,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Ok lets put all the wrong doing aside for one second and follow peoples call for 'getting behind the PLC as the only game in town' That's partly your or others words and partly another persons who shares your views on here, so this is not all directed at you individually and please don't take it as such. What does that statement look like ?

    Just get behind the PLC would involve all parties, PLC, WSRA, WSSRT, Volunteers, etc. just continuing to do the same thing as per the last X years, but 'us' all giving the PLC more money immediately.
    1. All previous WSR appeals in the past have produced more or less what the latest one has done, a sum of money which is nowhere near enough, so will continuing to do the same thing change the result this time?
    2. I say 'more or less the same amount' because the latest circa £170k out of £500k reported as raised is debatable, it includes money already inside the WSR just moved from one side of the table to another, it appears some was donated for specific purposes so can't be used generally and some other figures that just don't add up from my opinion (which is of course debatable).
    3. So if we all were convinced to just write a cheque and save the WSR what does that mean? Well the PLC say they made a £300k profit so they have that cash, the PLC also said they had the £100k for buying WSRA Promotions but didn't pay so they have that cash. They also say they need £500k to make up the difference, so that's £900k in total to last until April 2021, which going on a reduced cost base does sound about right.
    4. Lets say for the sake of argument the £170k donated is £100k just for ease of sums ( I think its lower). So that's £400k needed. No previous WSR appeal has ever got near this mark just by going to its own internal people and asking for a donation. Additionally many people have already donated both in 2019 track appeal (£187k) and now a reported 2020 £170k. The curve showing amounts donated is dropping off as people have no more to give. However to put it in context it would now need every single person who have signed the Petition (533) to donate £750 each to achieve £400k.
    5. Additionally if the PLC doesn't have £300k profit and £100k by not paying the WSRA invoice, how much more is needed to be paid by each person ?
    6. Based on the facts is the plan of "just get behind the PLC and give us your money" likely to be successful as the 'only game in town'?
    7. I've mentioned about outside offers of help, grant funders, MP's, etc. Is continuing to exclude outside help and only continuing to shake the donation tin at the same old people going to work ?
    8. How will just doing what has always been done going to be different this time, especially given a background of removing more and more people from inside the tent whilst telling people outside of the tent to s*d off ?
    9. Is it time to do something very different before the figures speak for themselves or do we just carry on doing the same?
     
  9. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2020
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    799
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    True there have been lots of offered solutions, valid observations and the like. But there have been no suggestions of how.

    I remind you, as I did years ago, that the Plc is a standalone commercial company and does not have to act on the views of any "influencers" other than its shareholders.

    I was pleased to see the WSRA's acting chairman write in the latest Journal about the need for change and I truly hope this can be built on.

    Meanwhile, we need to keep the Plc afloat. Otherwise there'll be no Railway.

    Steve
     
  10. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2020
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    799
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Andy, you say: "Is it time to do something very different before the figures speak for themselves or do we just carry on doing the same?"

    I say "OK, what and how?" and "No, we get through this crisis and make ruddy sure it is the last time the Plc is bailed out by having the WSR organisations agree to radical change to a single, new charity with its new, commercial arm".

    So, we need to stop writing and talking about it, and to make sure we still have a Railway, we need to get the ailing Plc through this crisis.

    Steve
     
    Maunsell907 likes this.
  11. staffordian

    staffordian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,501
    Likes Received:
    2,134
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    The Potteries
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes, I do see that there is a none too subtle difference between having ideas and these ideas, even the best of them, being put into effect.

    I take some solace from the fact that some who often post in very opinionated ways on here are not doing so now, and this might well indicate that moves behind the scenes are under way. However this latest cash crisis has been ongoing for long enough that one would hope that some early signs of such plans might be evident.

    It strikes me that as others have said, the only feasible option is to somehow marshall enough shareholder votes to either call an egm or in some other way force a vote for some sort of predetermined course of action. I don't see any other sort of pressure having the slightest effect on the current management.

    Too long a delay could well mean nothing is left to save.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  12. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2020
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    799
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well, you are right. It is a sick animal. But I believe letting it fail will not necessarily allow a new venture to start over. I do not want to tae that risk. Better to crank up the lobbying for urgent and radical reform.

    Steve
     
    malcolm imps, Bifur01, echap and 3 others like this.
  13. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,484
    Likes Received:
    23,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I’m replying to this because it’s merely the most recent, but it is a comment on all such pleas. Supporters of the Minehead branch are in a catch-22 situation. You rightly highlight the cash crisis on the railway and that only through the plc can this be dealt with. Yet it is that plc that I and others have fundamental issues with, and which as an entity, has acted in contravention of what I and others would call basic business ethics.

    Unbidden, as I type this, the conduct of the plc is bringing the likes of companies like Sports Direct and Arcadia to mind. And I avoid shopping at them like the plague, let alone donating to them.

    I don’t know people or structures well enough to advise “how”, but while that position remains as it stands, the plc is the greatest obstacle to keeping the branch alive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Given the desire of the PLC incumbents to retain the existing organisation (and who can blame them for that..)-
    And given the seeming impossibility of any means of removing the PLC incumbents (a result of the shareholding system)-

    the inescapable conclusion is that if the PLC survives, either as it is or bought out of administration, it will remain under the control of the same people for the foreseable future. In which case all those who have been removed and all those who expect to be removed in the future for arguing may as well walk away now and save Nat Pres a load of server space. Because for all the talk of urgent radical reform is just that, talk, unless there is the legal means to enforce it.
     
    jnc likes this.
  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,634
    Likes Received:
    8,302
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    and therein lies the fundamental challenge . Save the railway and you empower a regime that seems to not to engender consistent support , or run the risk the railway fails

    there is an oft repeated line and it was in previous screenshots shared . It is , I wish to do what’s right for the WSR .

    I've recognised in jobs that I am not the right person for the role , I've tried hard to make up my shortcomings , ultimately making it worse . With age comes a certain wisdom and I have declined roles where I recognise it is not right for me and I'm not the right person for the business concerned . Maybe those in charge hold the key and need to ask themselves that very fundamental question
     
  16. rodders154

    rodders154 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Messages:
    680
    Likes Received:
    770
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Grumpy old man
    Location:
    Yeovil
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well said Steve Never a truer word spoken
     
    Maunsell907 likes this.
  17. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Over the hills and far away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Is this view perhaps part of the problem ? The PLC is registered as a commercial company to meet the requirements of the tax regime and other legalities. But it is not a commercial company in the sense of being operated in order to produce a dividend for the shareholders. Its job is to maintain and operate the railway on behalf of the shareholders, which include the WRSA, WSSRT, and the SCC. Whilst I agree that the PLC Board does not have to take notice of the other interested parties, I think it very unwise to ignore their views entirely, especially those of the volunteers who contribute so much to the railway's existence.
     
  18. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2015
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    4,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I did try and help as did others, I've written about my journey here before so won't repeat it again for fear of a long post. However to summarise: I acted, went out found the money (£186k in 2018), found the funders, wrote the grant funding strategies and worked with every single member of the WSR family. I found and recruited a WSRA Fund Raiser and Trustee to cover fund raising, and built relationships with external parties who could help and indeed wanted to and gave it all to both the WSRA & PLC to take forward with my help. and set the scene with two large funders who could easily between them cover more than £1 Million annually, and perhaps still could today if the environment was right.

    I didn't do that alone so I'm not going to say I'm the solution (in fact I'm now a part of the problem because I've spoken out), many people helped both internally and externally.

    Then I was removed, all of this was thrown away, the HPC Project was re-directed and the external groups told to go away. I appealed, worked internally and lobbied all internal parties, quietly for months before exhausting all possible routes but as today nobody wanted to change and here we all are.

    My woes are not important, however much we moan on here as the only way of expressing our feelings (because there is no internal way of letting people know how people feel) in your own words the PLC only has a short period of time now. The solutions are out there I am convinced of that, I have spoken to many in the last few months who would help but not as it is, a team could be put together and outside agencies could engage. The WSR could and would be worth saving for many people for many difference reasons but while people in the WSR have the drawbridge firmly up nothing is going to get through and more people are being thrown over the parapet by the day now.

    Steve if you want to call me to talk through how a rescue package could be put together let me know and I'll give you my number, I don't have all the answers, it would need many and I don't want a place at any table in the future, it just needs a will and team work and I don't think the current people are able to provide that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
    MellishR and 35B like this.
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,063
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I know what happens in another setting when a set-up is failing. In the extreme, the 'board' is removed en masse and replaced with an independent group that has no connection with the outgoing board. A rescue is put together etc etc. If something is going seriously wrong under the given administration, what you don't do is 'bail out' that group; you put in place a different one.

    Other people will know whether this plc is failing or not. If not, support it; if so, then replace. Just a personal view.
     
  20. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,906
    Likes Received:
    3,704
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    South Hams
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The WSR - all the constituent parts - have had years to get their act together. Without doubt many connected with the line in one way, or another, were aware of the direction it was heading. It seems either they did not support change or hoped others would get around to doing it.
    Five years ago Robin Coombes and his Report, gave them the pointers needed, but it took a long while for the WSR (as a whole) to take it on board and even then reluctantly, it seems by some. Even what was accepted does not appear to have been a great success.
    Most commentators here - critics and supporters - seem to agree that the WSR is a sinking ship. It has had more than enough time to avoid a catastrophe, if that is to be the outcome, but sadly there are (or seemingly was) many with the necessary acumen to have avoided this happening.
    There have been numerous excellent suggestions here on NP, but most ignored or given a hostile review. Many good and sensible comments, from the people concerned (not me I add), were from those highly committed to their respective lines with years of expertise in heritage line operations - and vagaries. It all fell, it would appear, on stony ground.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
    acourtrail and Sunnieboy like this.

Share This Page